ALLISTER SPARKS iNTERVIEW:  

 

Most of us will probably never forget that history-making moment back in 1994 when Nelson Mandela voted for the first time in his life. During those long, dark years of apartheid, Mandela's party, the African National Congress, was outlawed. But the 'Rainbow Nation' was born that day and its future looked rosy. Fast forward 15 years to today and the once all-powerful ANC's vice-like grip on the new South Africa could be loosening. Come Wednesday, that troubled country will vote for a new president and the ANC is fielding a highly controversial candidate, one Jacob Zuma, against whom corruption charges were recently dropped. Allister Sparks is an iconic South African journalist and commentator. He was a savage critic of the old apartheid regime, but he certainly doesn't pull his punches when it comes to the democratically elected ANC-led government, either.

 

 

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  Allister, it's good to talk to you again. I read recently that this upcoming South African election was the most hyped election since the walls of apartheid came tumbling down back in 1994. You've been there the whole time watching the changes taking place in your country. How would you describe the state of play?

 

ALLISTER SPARKS, AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST:  Yes, I think it is the most important. I think it's a landmark moment because the ANC, the African National Congress, which has ruled the country ever since '94 has now split. As it turns out, I think the piece of it that's broken it away to form a new party called the Congress of the People isn't going to do very well, but nonetheless it is a significant new moment and, of course, we've had the huge bust-up between ex-president Thabo Mbeki and the present leader of the ANC, Jacob Zuma. So it's been a very dramatic run up.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  For those of us outside the country it has been, for all intents and purposes, a 1-party state for so long. Is it a question of not whether the ANC win this election, but by how much or how much less?

 

ALLISTER SPARKS:   I think that's absolutely right, George. I think that is the issue - how much will they win by? Last time they got 70%. This time it is a question as to whether they will retain their two-thirds majority, which of course empowers the ruling party to change the constitution if it wishes. They haven't been disposed to do that until now, but everyone is a little bit nervous about Jacob Zuma.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  Allister, we do need to talk about Jacob Zuma because he is the buzzword of South African politics at the moment. I notice that someone wrote that it is a cult of either supporting or hating Jacob Zuma. Mixed feelings, to say the least, about this man?

 

ALLISTER SPARKS:  Yes, indeed. He's a very controversial figure. He has just got off the hook from some very, very serious corruption charges. He was acquitted some years back of a rape charge. So, you know, there's a pretty tacky background to the man. Nonetheless he's a warm and pleasant fellow. He has been through a hellish eight years with all of this and nobody is quite sure what kind of president he's going to be.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  Is he up to it? Is he in fact fit to be president of South Africa?

 

ALLISTER SPARKS:  Well, that's a moot point - we'll find out. The thing that worries me is the way he's got off the hook with this latest corruption trial.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  You'd actually describe it that way - that Zuma got off the hook?

 

ALLISTER SPARKS:  Yes,  I'm calling him South Africa's O.J. Simpson - he's off the hook but, as opinion polls show, the majority of South Africans don't believe he's innocent.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  It doesn't really augur all that well for South Africa when you have a man who's going to take power who's also been accused of abusing it.

 

ALLISTER SPARKS:  There has clearly been manipulation of state institutions. We have the National Intelligence Agency fighting against the National Prosecuting Agency and because of all this political involvement in the case it has had to be withdrawn on that technicality. The charges remain, but the fact is how safe is the rule of law going to be, how safe is our constitution going to be? And that is why it is so important that the ANC should fall short of that two-thirds majority.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  Is this 'welcome to the real world of South African politics' for the ANC?

 

ALLISTER SPARKS:  Yes, the end of idealism and the beginning of normality, I guess is one way to put it.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  Allister, what would be the best outcome for South Africa from the election? Is there a best- and a worst-case scenario, as you see it?

 

ALLISTER SPARKS:  The worst-case scenario would be the beginning of the erosion of the rule of law and the kind of patronage and cronyism that we've seen - the allocation of tenders and other perks going to buddies in government, which has been the bane of African politics. If that begins... Well, it began under President Mbeki. If that continues under Jacob Zuma or accelerates, gets worse, that's the worst-case scenario. The best-case scenario is that we begin to see a uniting of our scattered, small opposition parties into a single and much more effective force so that we will have a proper 2-party system that could lead to regime change at the ballot box.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  Can we talk about post-Mandela South Africa? What happens to South Africa, to your country, when the great man goes?

 

ALLISTER SPARKS:  You know, the great man has gone - he is not in the public eye any more. He is a symbol, an icon. He is referred to - he will continue to be referred to - after his departure but he is elderly now, he is well into his 90s. He is not a participant in day-to-day events at all. Zuma dragged him out very controversially and propped him up. I'm not even sure the poor, old man was aware of how he was being used.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:   But he has backed Zuma, hasn't he?

 

ALLISTER SPARKS:  Not really - he just appeared, held his hand and wished him well, that was all. But it was a puppet show.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  On a personal note, Allister, your own feelings for South Africa - the good, the bad and the ugly bits of it?

 

ALLISTER SPARKS:   The death of idealism has been disturbing, worrying, but the country is solid, it's stable. And this is not going to become another Zimbabwe - we don't have one man stuck there like Robert Mugabe, who seems to stay on for ever. For heaven's sake, in our 15 years of democracy, we will have had four presidents in short time - all from the same party, but the party's shown that it's prepared to throw out its own if they displease them.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:   Allister, it's wonderful to talk to you again and thank you very much.

 

ALLISTER SPARKS:  Thank you very much, George. 

THANDI MODISE INTERVIEW:  

 

Thandi Modise is a veteran of the anti-apartheid movement. In fact, she spent 10 years in jail for her trouble. Presently, she's the Deputy Secretary-General of the ANC and George Negus spoke with her from Johannesburg. 

 

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  Deputy Secretary-General Thandi Modise, thank you for talking to us.  Is it possible to say at the moment that even though the ANC are expected to win the election, that the days of the ANC dominating South African politics, post-apartheid, are over?

 

THANDI MODISE, ANC DEPUTY SECRETARY-GENERAL:  I don't think it would be correct to say that. The ANC has continued to enjoy the support of the majority of South Africans because of the dents we are making in poverty, the fight against crime, but importantly, our efforts to continue the struggle to make sure that all South Africans, black and white, feel they belong, enjoy the same respect and the same dignity in the country of their birth.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  Is it true that as a result of the party splitting, which it has done as a result of a nasty internal fight, that your vote will not be as great as it has been in past elections?

 

THANDI MODISE:  I think sometimes we get amazed by what the media and what the so-called surveys tell us. What the split, the formation of COPE, has done for the ANC is to actually help us resuscitate our structures so there is much more enthusiasm, and much more members of the public joining the ANC to be not just supporters, but to be members of the ANC.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  How do you feel when people like Archbishop Tutu as he said recently that he's refusing to vote for the ANC, saying it had betrayed Nelson Mandela's legacy?

 

THANDI MODISE: I think he is entitled to his opinion. I am disappointed that a man who enjoyed all our respect refuses to allow another man to enjoy the protection of the law, to enjoy the protection and love of his own party. The fact that the Bishop has decided to go on a personal crusade against Jacob Zuma is very regrettable. But he does not determine politics of South Africa. He was just one of us who was struggling and contributing towards the liberation of this country.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  I think you would have to agree that Jacob Zuma is, to say the least, a controversial character and when he becomes president of South Africa, which looks almost as certain thing, he will be one of the more controversial leaders about. People have what might be called a love-hate relationship with the man.

 

THANDI MODISE: I think you must also agree with me that the controversy surrounding Jacob Zuma are made. That the majority of South Africans are not crazy, that we cannot believe - and there has been a trail of events, a trail of evidence that point out that certainly there are some individuals who have made it their business to discredit this man. Should South Africans throw away this man because some people would like to portray him as controversial, as incompetent, as fraudulent?

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  Corrupt? Corrupt is another word that's used.

 

THANDI MODISE: Jacob Zuma like any other... yes, and corrupt. But has that been proven anywhere? It has not. We believe that we struggled so hard to come up with the constitution of South Africa that Jacobs Zuma, like any other man or woman in the street, must be presumed innocent until proven guilty. Why is it that nobody in the world begins to ask fundamentally why we would want to crucify somebody in the media if it is not for political interest?

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  What about in the courts? Because people are beginning to wonder whether the rule of law in South Africa is under threat as a result of the influence of people like Jacob Zuma?

 

THANDI MODISE:  I don't think the South African rule of law is under any threat under Jacob Zuma or under the ANC. In fact, if you look at the events, Jacob Zuma has been victimised by the very, very systems that he helped fight for.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  Are you suggesting that there has been a conspiracy - a conspiracy mounted against Jacob Zuma?

 

THANDI MODISE:  I am suggesting - I am not only suggesting that there has been a conspiracy, I am actually saying that South Africans know exactly who has been behind this matter.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  Are they people who have supported Thabo Mbeki in the past and what is their intention?

 

THANDI MODISE:  Whether they supported Thabo Mbeki in the past, or not, what interests us as a nation is their personal interest in the humiliation and the destruction of Jacob Zuma.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  Why did the party, Deputy Secretary-General, why did the party feel so obliged and so strongly that they should get rid of Thabo Mbeki? Was it an old left-right battle?

 

THANDI MODISE: No, both men, in fact in their youth had been members of the Communist Party. Both men had been involved in the armed struggle. Both men had been a very close in working in the other structures of pushing the struggles of South Africa.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  They were comrades in arms in fact?

 

THANDI MODISE: In fact, both men had been friends. Not just comrades, but friends.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  What happened?

 

THANDI MODISE: What happened is that friendship cannot overweigh the internal discipline, the obedience to what the ANC says. Nobody is above the ANC - that's all we say.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  Is it possible that South Africa has suffered as a result of the conflict between the two men?

 

THANDI MODISE: No, it is possible for you to look at the flipside. That in fact Thabo set a very good example also in Africa that said people vote for you, they give you a position - if they want to withdraw their patronage or their support, that they can do so without you resorting to bloodshed. I actually respect Comrade Thabo Mbeki for that.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  It's been a remarkable 15 years that we have been watching your country go from apartheid days to now democratic politics. Would you say that you are at a watershed stage at the moment?

 

THANDI MODISE: Perhaps the formation of COPE will add to vibrancy in the South African politics. Perhaps it will wake us up out of our complacency but perhaps it is just what they call in the township - fire made out of newspapers - it bursts into flame, you feel the heat for a second, it burns out. We don't know.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  Deputy Secretary, and thank you very much for talking to us. It's a marvellously important step in the progress that has been made in your country in such a short time. Thank you very much of giving us the opportunity to talk to you.

 

THANDI MODISE: Thank you, very much. Thank your country for having given us so much support in the past.

 

GEORGE NEGUS:  Yes, we do support you enormously - except in sport. Thandi Modise, not to be messed with. After seeing that, I'm sure you'll agree. And a big week coming up for the Rainbow Nation. We'll watch that election with interest.

Camera

PETER PALMER

 

Interview Editor

MICAH McGOWN

 

Interview Producer/Researcher 

JANE WORTHINGTON