Now to Iran - clearly the international story of the week. For days now after the widely regarded as rigged election victory by the outlandish Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the streets of the capital, Tehran, have been clogged by ongoing opposition protests. The recent mass displays of open dissent by mainly young Iranians - more than 60% of the population, remarkably, are under 30 - marks the greatest threat yet to the Islamic country's ruling clerics, the Ayatollahs, since they grabbed power back in 1979. For a broad, almost historical take on the potentially explosive situation in Iran, George Negus spoke earlier from Washington with Reza Pahlavi, the self-exiled son of the late Shah whose autocratic rule was toppled 30 years ago.

GEORGE NEGUS:  Mr Pahlavi, thank you very much the time. I guess I should begin by asking you that 30 years ago, the Islamic revolution toppled your father. Politely, why should the world be listening to what you have got to say at the moment? What is your motivation for speaking out against Ahmadinejad and his government?

REZA PAHLAVI, FORMER SHAH'S SON: The struggle that we have been leading for years once from the very beginning against a very oppressive theocracy that has taken our country back to the Middle Ages. Today you can see millions of Iranians standing up for their rights, not putting up any longer with 30 years of oppression, but demanding their sovereign rights to freedom, to free speech, to expression, and this is what I have been defending or long.

GEORGE NEGUS:  I guess the point is why though should people be listening to you, because, you are hardly, and I say this politely, hardly a spokesperson for the Iranian people.

REZA PAHLAVI: First of all, I leave that judgment to the Iranian people. But I know my message has been received very well and they know that for all these years, I had been in solidarity with their demands to self-determination and freedom. I'm committed to that call, I believe in a process of civil disobedience and non-violence as a method for change and this is exactly what is happening. Look, it is not about me, it is about them. It is about their future, is about their rights, their future generations and my country - the way it could progress in this world is very ill served by this regime and I think the majority of the Iranian people who from the beginning were left outside of this system demand nothing more than to rejoin with the free world except for the obstacle between them and the free world remains this regime.

GEORGE NEGUS:  Let us talk about your views on that regime because you have been very strong in your comments about them. In fact, I found one quote where you said that you believed it was a terrorist regime and the hope would be that it would just disappear. I mean, are you suggesting regime change, a la Iraq and Saddam Hussein, because at the moment, Barack Obama is talking about a no-meddling policy if you like. That is very powerful. You really do regard Ahmadinejad and his regime as a terrorist regime?

REZA PAHLAVI: I don't think anybody doubts that. However the method of change has to be at the hand of the Iranian people and from within. I’m definitely not a proponent of any outside intervention. I believe we as the Iranian people are quite capable of doing it on our own, however, as history has shown us, movements of civil disobedience where an oppressed people look to the outside free world for moral support and solidarity is an element that has been missing so long. Today, we have right in front of our eyes, a scenario that is developing in my country that could really be a major breakthrough in the history of our nation.

GEORGE NEGUS:   That being the case though, do you believe that Barack Obama for instance has been strong enough? He has been very, very cautious as have so many other Western leaders about exactly how they should approach this problem and not being seen to meddle - his word - in Iranian politics and life.

REZA PAHLAVI: I am glad that the President in this country is focusing on the Iranian situation. As he is working his foreign policy regarding Iran, I just hope that the language will be more connective to the people on the street than the energy level that we have seen in Iran. The important thing is to be able to separate the question of supporting the rights to freedom and self-determination of the Iranian people, and their human rights from whatever is the dialogue that he has stated in terms of the nuclear issue related to the regime.

GEORGE NEGUS:  At the moment, we're been looking for a week now, at street demonstrations that have never been seen before even after the overthrow of your father. We have also seen deaths, we have seen disappearances, we have seen a clampdown on the media. Do you think things are looking as though they are heading in the right or wrong direction in Iran right now?

REZA PAHLAVI: If the regime was to continue on cracking down, if it was to commit to a massive repression, than what is the world going to do? Are we going to have another Tiananmen Square or are we going to have people who say enough is enough, it is time to stand and show that we're not going to beat around the bush, we are going to stand for people's rights, not by taking sides for this or that candidate, but simply tell the people of Iran that we are with you and we support you in your demands, for your rights, your human rights, your political rights.

GEORGE NEGUS:  Do you think that the election was rigged because there was a widespread opinion that the result was quite fraudulent?

REZA PAHLAVI: I understand the nature of the system that from the beginning, has a whole screening process whereby only pre-approved candidates by the Supreme Leader can even introduce themselves in the so-called election which I refer to as a selection more than an election - and people in Iran are not oblivious to the fact. It has always been a question of choice between the lesser of the two evils, but I really believe that this campaign now in Iran has transcended the question of just an election. It is a defiance to the system that as a whole has been the main reason for people suffering and repression.

GEORGE NEGUS:   How do we combat a situation where some of the religious leaders in Iran are saying that this sort of result was as a result of the divine not intervention, but a divine acceptance of the result. Is this about politics? Or is it about religion?

REZA PAHLAVI: Again, we have a 1-man rule in which the Supreme Leader who claims to be God's representative on Earth controls just every aspect of State and Government, from the media, security forces, the judiciary, even the political process. In such a climate and according to the very law of this regime where people are considered not good enough to judge for themselves and need somebody else to decide what is good for them, in such a system, there is no possible avenue to any direction, and that by the way has nothing to do with religion. Case in point - the majority of our clerics, even at the time of the revolution 30 years ago, where the great majority oppose to what Khamenei and his vision was proposing for the country. Based on the very tenets of Shiite Islam, I understand that Iranians would appreciate the importance of what it means to have a secular system which is what we are proposing as an alternative to this theocracy.

GEORGE NEGUS:  Are you saying then that the Supreme Leader, the Supreme Ayatollah, is more powerful than Ahmadinejad? That is what we should be worried about?

REZA PAHLAVI: Of course, at the end of the day, it is at the hand of the so-called Supreme Leader. And that is one the reasons why you have all the obstacles. And it is not just enough just to remove him from the equation. The whole system as a whole has to be replaced which is indeed why we call for a change of regime fundamentally and replacing this theocracy with a legitimate democracy as we experience it in the free world.

GEORGE NEGUS:  In reality, how can you make that kind of drastic change in a system where politics and religion including what you are saying, are so intertwined? How could the situation possibly be worked out simply and easily without some form of outside intervention?

REZA PAHLAVI: I think you need to hear more from the Iranian people. That is what has been lacking. I know that public opinion - having very little access to the reality of things inside Iran, knew very little about Iran. Today, maybe by coincidence, the fact that medias were there, and this whole issue has been exposed so vividly for the whole world to see, your take on how Iranians think or believe might be very different from what you might have thought so far. That's a whole reason why I kept saying to world leaders and governments, while you want to have a dialogue with the regime - that is fine - but have a dual track approach. Isn't it time that you open a line of dialogue with the people, with the legitimate representatives of the people, Democratic forces, secular forces, regular Iranians who can tell you better than even I can what they really feel and what they want from their future. And then my friend, you realise that unlike what the regime wants to portray, Iranians are quite capable of making a separation between issues and the other and there's nothing more important to them than liberty, freedom and human rights. And religion, of course, has a place in our society - nobody debates that.

GEORGE NEGUS:  You didn't quite answer my question earlier when I asked whether or not you thought that the election result was in fact rigged, that it was a fraud. Is it possible that we are seeing - by what we are seeing on the streets of Tehran at the moment it is just Tehran? That is not what is going on in the rest of Iran, that it is possible that Ahmadinejad does have a lot of support outside of Tehran?

REZA PAHLAVI: It is very widespread and again, since media has been very limited, if almost not shut off in terms of covering beyond the major cities or provinces, it is much more widespread than that. Obviously, in the case of any totalitarian system, it is fair to say that it is always a minimal core group of supporters. Certainly, Mr Ahmadinejad and company have a certain deal of support. But the numbers are minimal. You're talking about a nation of 70 million in which the regime at best may count maybe 12% to 15% of the entire population.

GEORGE NEGUS:  That means you do believe that the result was rigged?

REZA PAHLAVI: Yes, I believe that the results were rigged, but it is not a surprise, it is not the first time. It has been done before, almost to the point that the selected candidate is pre-designed. It is a whole theatrics that the regime puts out there, not necessarily for the benefit of domestic consumption, but simply can't give the appearance to the outside world that we have a process of elections in this country. But no Iranian inside Iran ever believe that the principle of elections is even fair to begin with since they don't even have the right to choose the candidate of their choice or someone who is not acceptable to the regime would automatically be stricken from the list.

GEORGE NEGUS:  If you are so keen to assist the people of Iran, has it crossed your mind that you should be over there in the fray, standing side-by-side with the opponents of the people that you are so critical of?

REZA PAHLAVI: We each have role to play and I believe a lot of my compatriots understand the importance of what I can do for them and I would like to be in Iran as soon as possible when the circumstances are appropriate. It is very important for me to be able to coordinate their efforts both from the inside, with the outside, and the international community, and that is the specifics of my mission at this point - hopefully with the idea to be able to return to my homeland as soon as possible.

GEORGE NEGUS:  Thank you very much from your time. We appreciate it.

REZA PAHLAVI: You're welcome. Good day.

GEORGE NEGUS:  But, then again, would he necessarily be all that welcome back home? You may have picked up that the election last weekend managed to attract more than 100% voter turn-outs at 200 polling stations, including a 126%, a 132% and a miraculous 141%. Apparently, even 100% is unprecedented - indeed, generally considered impossible - in any democratic country in the world. So don't call Ahmadinejad 'undemocratic' - he's more democratic than anyone.

Interview Producer/Researcher 

JANE WORTHINGTON

Researcher

MELANIE MORRISON