Also joining their conversation is Jack Dexter—disabled model, wheelchair user, and proud advocate - who shares his own story of using sex worker services and challenging public stigma and Dr Rachel Wotton—sex worker, activist, and academic—who’s spent decades working with people with disability and holds a PhD on the topic. She brings insight, and lived experience to a conversation that’s long overdue.
I wasn't aware of at the time, that they would be a crucial source of connection and enjoyment in my life, and really the only option, girlfriends have proved to be really difficult for me, given my disabilities.James Harkness
People come to see sex workers for a myriad of reasons.... but if they need to learn how to give and receive consent, to become more skilled and being able to touch and caress and interact with another person, then often we’re the safe place where they can practice so that they can become better partners when they go out and start dating.Dr Rachel Wotton
Credits
Hosts: Madeleine Stewart & Alistair Baldwin
Producer: Eliza Hull
Sound Design & Mix: Session in Progress
Executive Producer: Attitude Foundation
Art: Lucy Melvin
SBS Team: Joel Supple, Max Gosford, Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn
Links
Transcript
Alistair Baldwin
This episode is recorded on the land of the Wurundjeri, Woi wurrung people of the Kulin nation, and would like to give our respect to their elders, past and present.
Love without limits is a podcast about intimacy and yes, sex. Just a heads up, we'll be talking openly about topics that might not be for everyone.
Madeleine Stewart
I'm Madeline Stewart
Alistair Baldwin
And i'm Alistair Baldwin, and you are listening to love without limits, a podcast that shines a light on the real life stories of disabled people as we dive into the often taboo and stigmatized subject of intimacy and sex. On today's episode, we're talking about sex workers who provide their services for people in the disabled community. So right off the bat, Madeline, may I pry? Have you ever engaged the services of a sex worker?
Madeleine Stewart
Oh no, not personally, but my NDIS plan won't cover it. You know what I mean. But I do have to shout out an incredible documentary on the subject called sexual healing that I watched. It was incredible. Definitely check it out. What about you, Alistair?
Alistair Baldwin
What's interesting I've in my career. You know, I love to brag. I've made a lot of erotic film and TV content.
Madeleine Stewart
Do you mean porn? Is that your polite way of saying porn
Alistair Baldwin
Well, soft core porn. It did air on SBS at 930 so that time slot could go either way. To be quite honest, I wrote an episode of the anthology series erotic stories, and my episode delved into the world of bondage, and we employed a lot of incredible sex workers and professional dominatrixes to be background actors and extras.
Madeleine Stewart
Well, that's really interesting. I'm so excited to learn more about this today. I don't know about you, Alistair?
Alistair Baldwin
I certainly am.
Madeleine Stewart
I'm so keen to know like, why are sex workers still seen as taboo for disabled people? Like, that's what I want to know.
Alistair Baldwin
Well our first guest is James Harkness, who's an autistic disability advocate and has complex mental health including schizophrenia and psychosis. He regularly uses the services of sex workers, and believes people with disability deserve to have intimate sexual lives. Welcome to the show. James Harkness
James Harkness
Thanks for having me.
Madeleine Stewart
So my first question for you today is, why do you think it's so important that sex workers are available for people with disability?
James Harkness
Look, I would say that life is hard for all of us. There's lots of struggle in life, and sex is a really enjoyable part of life. The thing is, is that people with disabilities can have extra challenges in terms of finding that special someone to enjoy sex with and to access sex. And so really, I say sex workers as providing a crucial service for a bit of enjoyment in life.
Alistair Baldwin
We face so many barriers as disabled people, but our bodies and our brains are also a source of pleasure, and so we should have access to that. And how fabulous.
James Harkness
Yes
Alistair Baldwin
James, can I ask about your personal experience with sex workers and reaching out to employ their services?
James Harkness
Sure. Look, I first employed the services of sex workers when I was doing a law degree. Started to go to a sex worker at the end of exam periods as a reward. Back then, I saw it as a bit of an indulgence. But what I didn't realise, or what I wasn't aware of at the time is really it was my future was going to be, that they would be a crucial source of connection and enjoyment in my life, and really the only option, girlfriends have proved to be really difficult for me, given my disabilities. And after finishing my law degree in 2006 I was diagnosed with a psychotic condition and started to use the services of sex workers more frequently. I've actually had a couple of flings or relationships with sex workers outside the brothel, and I count that as really valuable life experience. Yeah.
Alistair Baldwin
Would you say that, as someone who employs the services of sex workers that there are a lot of misconceptions about who you are, or who the type of people who are hiring sex workers are?
James Harkness
Look, I think so. Absolutely. I think sex workers in for anyone, any person who uses the services of sex workers is is misunderstood, and there's lots of misconceptions. I think that for people with disability, it's not just a want or a desire, it's more of a need. And for that, I actually, I know one sex worker who says that she prefers to work with clients with disability. She, in her experience, they're good clients and typically have a lot of respect and kindness and that kind of thing. Yeah, there's certainly misconceptions, and it would be great if we could clear those up.
Alistair Baldwin
What are the things that you look for when you're looking for a sex worker to hire for their services? Are you looking for a sex worker who has experience with disability or has had clients with disabilities before?
James Harkness
If I'm really honest about it, that's not a factor. Well, look, I'll be even more honest and say that when the NDIS was paying for sex workers, that was very much a factor whether sex workers would be willing to charge my NDIS. And so it was a very practical consideration like that. And that was fabulous when, yeah, and I wish that had come back.
Alistair Baldwin
Could you speak more about the impact of sex work being defunded with the NDIS. It sounds like something which was really great when it was there and
Madeleine Stewart
and there was all the stigma in the media as well around it that got it removed around that time.
James Harkness
Yeah I think it sucks, you know. And some unfortunately, we, we live in a country where there are those, you know, lust is a sin, and that kind of thing. And I'd say that society is still learning about sex which is consensual and respectful and free of exploitation, and it's an edgy topic. When the NDIS was paying for sex workers, there was a lot of criticism. And I wish it would come back. You know, I really do it was, it's a source of enjoyment in life. Life is hard. And if there's something that people can enjoy, that people with disabilities, that's great.
Madeleine Stewart
Not to mention the cost as well. I mean, we mentioned the DSP. We all know how the DSP is pittance, really, compared to the rental crisis and all this stuff going around. The last thing you also want to save up for is your basic human needs. You know, your sexual relief
Alistair Baldwin
Intimacy,
Madeleine Stewart
Yeah. Intimacy, yeah, that's right.
So James, how do we reduce the misconceptions and stigma of people employing sex workers?
James Harkness
Representation really helps. The film. I mean, this was a the son of a Russian oligarch, and Anora the film. Anora was which won all the Oscars. It's great to see films like that. That director, Sean Baker, one of his missions is to destigmatise sex work, you know. And I'm all for that. And the more representation there is that, that's a big help. You know, absolutely, yeah,
Alistair Baldwin
I think that's a beautiful point, because, you know, disabled people face so much stigma, and sex workers face so much stigma, and so this specific intersection, it can be really hard for a lot of society to understand and empathise with.
James Harkness
Yes, absolutely, I think people with disabilities deserve sex workers and they're they offer a fantastic service. And yeah, but representation helps, yeah, yeah.
Alistair Baldwin
It's beautiful, yeah.
Madeleine Stewart
Thank you so much, James for joining us today and being so vulnerable and sharing with us and letting us pry into your life.
James Harkness
Thank you. I've loved this. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a highlight to do this, yeah,
Madeleine Stewart
Oh, it's been our highlight too. Yeah,
Alistair Baldwin
I know there'll be many listeners who will really relate and connect to everything you've said about this topic. So thanks so much for coming into the studio.
James Harkness
Thanks for having me
Madeleine Stewart
Our next guest is Jack Dexter, who is a model and disability advocate who is also uses the services of sex workers. Welcome Jack
Jack Dexter
Thanks for having me on.
Alistair Baldwin
Thanks for coming onto the show. I'm curious, could you speak a little bit to online dating? I mean, it's, you know, the modern way we're all connecting. What are your experiences, sort of, using the apps and stuff like that?
Jack Dexter
Well, some of the apps are, let's just say it's okay, until you mention about being in a wheelchair, and they're like, can you get it up off sort of stuff, quite a common question I'm asked.
Alistair Baldwin
\And people are just asking that out of the blue, not a Hello, nice. Yeah, well, yeah, question of disclosure on online dating is so interesting because it's extremely visual, and the apps are designed to make you make snap judgments, and so it's like, well, do I hide this element of myself so that people connect with me as a person before I reveal it, or am I upfront, to immediately weed out the dickheads who will be turned off when they find it and suddenly I've had that experience of I've got leg braces, so where am I cropping my grinder profile? Essentially, am I doing sexy? Below the knee? Above the knee? What's the deal?
Jack Dexter
It's funny. It's either I put photos up that don't show my wheelchair backrest behind my shoulders, or if it's going good, I'm like, Oh, here's my full body pic in the wheelchair. It's funny. Some reactions see their straight block, or they continue the chat. So yeah, that's why I decided to try out looking for sex workers to get rid of that sort of you don't have to worry about explaining the wheelchair. Well, you sort of do they say, I'm in a wheelchair. Have you worked with people, if in the wheelchair or physical condition sort of thing.
Madeleine Stewart
So what have your experiences been? Like, how did you find the right person? Did you have to look around a bit?
Jack Dexter
I actually did it when I had a holiday to Sydney last year, I decided, Oh, well, let's see what the guys are like here. Yeah, I did meet a nice guy who was a little bit weird at first, because he was, like, doing this, like, weird relaxation breathing. And I'm like, Oh....
Madeleine Stewart
Is that how it always starts, you start with the meditation session.
Jack Dexter
A Meditation session, that how it starts
Alistair Baldwin
Lighting a candle, massage parlor.
Jack Dexter
Yeah, it was interesting, sort of, yeah. Made there, yeah. It wasn't saying nerve wracking, I guess.
Alistair Baldwin
Yeah. Well, have you found that you know, after you've employed the services of a sex worker, you have felt a little bit more relaxed in your body sexually, or it's become easier over time.
Jack Dexter
I know what I want, what I'm looking for, and it might make it easier. I feel like I've got to work out positions that sort of work without me hurting my legs or something, yeah,
Alistair Baldwin
Absolutely. Well, it's very exciting that you're here in the studio talking about this with us, but I'm curious, how do you find talking about these kind of things with you know, your family or friends? Do you feel like there is a little bit of stigma around talking about the fact that you employ the services of a sex worker?
Jack Dexter
Yeah, I do believe so yeah, because it's like, when you're growing up, ah, they're 21 let's get them a stripper or something. And then when you say you hire someone for sex, it's like, sometimes you feel like you're going to be judged about it. Friends will be like, Oh, that's really sad that you've had to go down that path. In my head, I feel like that sometimes
Madeleine Stewart
I sometimes I feel sad that they've gone down their path, and they're very close minded about sex work, so right back at them.
Alistair Baldwin
Yeah. I mean, it sounds like for you, it's been a positive, empowering experience.
Jack Dexter
It has, yeah
Alistair Baldwin
To have that kind of agency. And so what I guess, are the qualities that you're looking for when you're looking to use the services of a sex worker?
Jack Dexter
Someone that's like, comfortable about the whole wheelchair thing or physical condition. To me, I sort of felt like, Am I able to make it enjoyable? And I found out ways I was able to move my arm certain way, or whatever. I was like, okay, it made me feel better for, like, future relationships down the track.
Madeleine Stewart
That's so great that you're learning more about yourself, yeah, feeling more confident in yourself. Do you often employ sex workers? Or is that was a one time special for Sydney? I mean, I'm from Sydney. I totally get it, they're gorgeous.
Jack Dexter
Actually, I did do another one another, like, got another sex worker, but because I live remotely, I had to pay for the travel as well, really, as the hours.
Madeleine Stewart
Really?
Jack Dexter
Yeah
Madeleine Stewart
I had no idea that was the thing
Jack Dexter
Yeah
Alistair Baldwin
Oh I always make the other guy pay for my Uber whether I'm charging or not, I'm like, if I'm coming, I'm coming. But have you found that maybe it is a little bit of a niche within the sort of broader, I guess, industry of sex workers and people who have that prior experience, you're having to do a little less explaining about, yeah, the way your body works?
Jack Dexter
Definitely, yeah. I've sort of not had to mean, like, yeah, like I said before it didn't really matter about the wheelchair thing with sex work, but yeah, dating is obviously different. This is just yeah, getting the job done. Basically,
Alistair Baldwin
yeah, as it were, yeah, yeah,
JacK Dexter
yeah, but it's not just always about the sex it's like the friendship sort of thing that you can build.
Alistair Baldwin
There's obviously been a lot of headlines in the news about whether there's government funding or disability sector funding for sex therapists, and that kind of interesting line between sex workers and sex therapists. I'm wondering if you could speak to that experience of you know, have you tried to reach out to a sex therapist? Or what is the situation where that might?
Jack Dexter
Yeah, I hear there's like sex therapists that can help, like people with disabilities, if they're in a relationship with another person with disability, yeah, that you can have services to help with that. But I I couldn't even find that. And further down the path, there was only sex workers available, but NDIS doesn't cover that, which is, I actually think that the love and all that should be covered under NDIS, because, like, it's a human need, human right? Yeah, I do think that, yeah, we should be able to have that being paid on the NDIS
Madeleine Stewart
100 percent, it's support, isn't it? It's access. It's your access provision, yeah. And I think it should be totally being included.
Jack Dexter
It's our exercise.
Madeleine Stewart
it's good for you, free pain relief. Thanks so much for coming onto the show and being so open about your experiences navigating dating, especially with two strangers. Thank you for letting us pry and ask all the questions.
Jack Dexter
Yeah that's all right. All right. Thank you.
Alistair Baldwin
Our final guest is Dr Rachel Wotton, who's a sex worker activist and educator with a PhD in exploring the experiences of people with disability who access sex worker services in Australia. Thanks for coming on the show. Dr Rachel Wotton
Dr Rachel Wotton
My pleasure indeed.
Alistair Baldwin
First off the bat, I'm keen to know what led you to this line of work?
Dr Rachel Wotton
I was doing my undergraduate degree in psychology, and I was always interested in the sex industry, and a friend of mine had started and that's essentially how I got started as well. I asked her all about it. I started work at the establishment she was at, and that went from there, and then I moved around different parts of the sex industry.
And now I work for myself. I'm an independent sex worker. I have my own workspace with an electric ceiling hoist to be able to provide an accessible workspace for lots of different people, including people with disability who may want to pay for sexual services.
In terms of my research, my masters was around New South Wales sex workers who pay, who provided services for clients with disability. And I wanted to extend the platform so that people with disability had their own voice and they could share their own experiences. So many times, people with disability are spoken about and they're not consulted directly with. And while I would have absolutely supported someone well within the disability community to be leading this research, I was in a position to be able to do so, and I felt that a lot of the time with the ethics, people are very nervous about who, you know, you're going to talk to, clients of sex workers, you know, there's very weird connotations about what a client is and who they look like and who they are. And I feel very comfortable talking to all sorts of different clients, and I have a lot of experience in being able to provide accessible services and being able to talk to people no matter what the communication methods are.
Alistair Baldwin
How Beautiful. I mean, it strikes me that the disabled community and sex workers are two groups which have a lot of societal misconceptions about them. I was curious if you wanted to speak to any of the misconceptions around disabled people who employ the services of sex workers, as well as the misconceptions about sex workers, whether or not working in a disability space,
Dr Rachel Wotton
Sure, yeah, the intersectionality of sex workers and the disability community, you know, far reaching. First of all, not everyone interacts in a heteronormative way. So sex workers are of all genders and all sexualities. And we know that people with disability are of all genders and all sexualities, and they interact not in a heteronormative manner. And there. From there, these two marginalised communities experience a lot of stigma and discrimination. There's a lot of infantilisation of both communities. There's a lot of policies that are written about us without us, and we know there should be nothing about us without us, we should be sitting at the table. Our voices should always be heard.
Alistair Baldwin
Rachel, I'd love if you could share a story about the positive impact of your work as a sex worker working with the disabled community.
Dr Rachel Wotton
Well, I've been working as a sex worker for over 30 years, so I have a lot of interaction with with clients who who present with disability, and as we know, a lot of disabilities are invisible or dynamic. So there'll be a lot of clients who wouldn't have shared their experiences of anxiety or depression or PTSD or any number of different chronic illnesses.
Often people only see a sex worker on their good days or low pain days. But certainly, there's been a number of clients that I can think of where they they've come and paid for different services from. Self in order to increase their confidence in being with an individual, being with a woman, learning how to undress someone and keeping one's anxiety lowered.
We know that a lot of magazines airbrush people's genitalia. So if you've never been with a woman and never seen labia before, or how to touch someone's breasts, how to pleasure a woman, even the idea of lying next to someone being naked and having that moment together, people come to see sex workers for a myriad of reasons, and so often it's about people's long term goals may be to have a partner, but if they need to learn how to give and receive consent, to become more skilled and being able to touch and caress and interact with another person, then often we're the safe place where they can kind of practice so that they can become better partners when they go out and start dating, even learning appropriate ways to be able to communicate with someone not just want to take your bra off.
It's like, Can I take your bra off? Now, you know, and receiving touch in a non medicalized way is something that, for some people have never experienced, and so there's a real joy in someone looking at them and treating them holistically, instead of just like, Okay, today we've got to get you undressed and we've got to transfer you into your commode, and then we've got to get you, you know, washed and then dried. Instead, it's just we can take our time, and I'm looking at the person I'm interacting with, the person I'm interested in what that person has to say and what they want to experience.
And people have choices. So a lot of times, we know that some people within the disability community, everything is very prescriptive, and it's very organised, and it's very rushed and it's very you know, people are time poor, and obviously, with sex workers, you're still paying for the service, but also the length of time that you're with us. But within that time period, we can explore things, and people have choices, and sometimes that's the first time that they've actually been able to explore different things and to talk to someone about different sexual aspects of things that they'd like to try and they may feel very nervous or scared about having those conversations with support workers or friends or other people that are in their lives.
Alistair Baldwin
I also really loved you were mentioning earlier about how in some situations, you're really providing almost an educational experience where people who you know may not have seen labia because of airbrushing and magazines and stuff like that. I think even for abled people, sex education is so heteronormative and not focused really on pleasure, and particularly female pleasure, I think is that something that you know, you've found really, I guess, what's your relationship to? Maybe that more, not even necessarily educational, but just informative side, building that into the time that you might have with a client.
Dr Rachel Wotton
Oh yeah totally. There's a lot of educational processes. I write about that in my PhD, which should be released by now, by the time the listeners are listening to this online, and it's about increasing a person's sexual literacy, that was one of the eight motivational factors from my findings, and often it's about we know that consent isn't just about yes or no at the start of the evening, the start of the interaction, that it's an ongoing kind of dance, and it's an ongoing check in.
I've been involved in new resources that have been developed with Shift pact and secca, and they're called Introduction to consent, an introduction to sexual consent. They're done in easy read style. They're available free online, and it really is one of those integral things that sex work is about a mutually consenting adult activity between two consenting adults, and so how do we learn how to consent? How do we learn how to receive consent? How do we learn how to give consent? What does that look like, verbally and non verbally as well, and at which stages of the interactions with another person, is it? Is it viable and should? When should we be doing it?
And in fact, a lot of people don't realise that within sex work, there's so many different levels. We're always asking for consent. Okay? Would you like. It to go to the bed. Now, okay, would you like me to undress you? Would you like to change positions? Would you like me to, you know, put the condom on. Now, would you like to do this? You know, how would you like to do this? Does this feel good? Would you like me to touch you? You know, slower or faster? There's a lot of to ing and fro ing. And if we build that up and then we bring that good approach into the sexual realm, then people are safer and happier and it will be more pleasurable. We know that there's been a lot of discussions around you know how to give good consent, or what happens when you don't get consent in the media and in the news, and it's something that we should keep talking about.
Alistair Baldwin
And I imagine in your work, you have to be very adaptive to different modes of communication as different disabilities can affect that and communication as a foundation, not just of consent, but also flirting and foreplay and curious, if you could speak a little bit to, I guess, some of the adaptations or approaches to communication that you've, I guess, encountered or utilised in your work?
Dr Rachel Wotton
Yeah, it's interesting, because within sex work, interactions with everyday kind of General Joe Blows often it's about open questions. How was your day? Have you had a good week? What are you up to this weekend?
And we know that with some individuals who use communication boards, so it will be like, yes, no. You need to be adept at asking shorter questions, but close questions, so that you can have really thorough in depth, beautiful conversations, but allowing people to communicate in their manner that best suits them. So yeah, I've had four hour bookings with people where it's yes, thumbs up, no, thumb down. And you learn to ask short, bite size questions. And it's about choice. And, you know, speaking to someone like an adult, you know, I know it must be really frustrating when, when someone may be thinking, I wish they'd ask this, you know, but acknowledging that,
So treating people like an adult, and once again, not infantilising someone. And when I've been training previously, this support worker once said, Well, how can they give consent? They're non verbal. I was like, I really did laugh at the time. I was like, looked at them like, really like, and it literally was like, how do you know what they want for breakfast? And they were like, Oh, well, we asked them, and they used their communication board. I was like, ta da, there you go.
Alistair Baldwin
Sex is going to be the same.
Dr Rachel Wotton
But if you don't have the vocabulary and you don't have the pictures on your communication board, how can you communicate that you want someone to stroke your thigh or if you want to kiss someone. So once again, that infantilisation happens at that basic communication level.
Alistair Baldwin
Well, I'm curious, just based off that research that you've done, are there any other policy changes, or looking forward to an ideal future? What does that look like for you?
Dr Rachel Wotton
It's more than a crying shame. It's It's abhorrent that sexual services have been written out, legislated out of the NDIS when it is supposed to be about one the NDIS has a policy that is supposed to be all policies are guided by an evidence based approach, and that there is strength and weight given to empirical evidence, which is what they have. Tada, thank you very much. And they've ignored on many, many levels. There's lots of people saying, actually, this is really important, and it's only a very, very small percentage of people who were accessing sexual services, and it was always for reasonable and necessary reasons.
Alistair Baldwin
And have you seen in the lack of funding? Are people engaging sex workers privately, you know, with their own money, just, I guess, off NDIS books? Has that been a transition that you've seen in the industry?
Dr Rachel Wotton
I think that the more we have discussions like this. So certainly, in the last 20 years, 25 years, there's been an increase in discussion in the media and with different organizations around including people's sexual rights and sexual expression within the disability community. And from that, there obviously are an increase in clients who are accessing sex workers or trying to access sex workers.
Alistair Baldwin
That was an incredibly informative snapshot and a wonderful conversation. Thanks for coming on the show Dr Rachel Wotton
Dr Rachel Wotton
Thanks so much
Alistair Baldwin
What an incredible episode today, very thought provoking. I mean, I loved my chat with Rachel and learning this really academic overview on sexual citizenship and the benefits that sex work can have in society for disabled people. I mean, what did you love about today's episode?
Madeleine Stewart
Well I was really interested talking to Jack and James. I thought they had a great perspective from the perspective of a client. I don't know about you, but I was a bit curious about what it was like, and I feel like I really learned a lot from them.
Alistair Baldwin
Yeah, so much. Well, that's it for today's episode, this has been love without limits, thanks for listening
Madeleine Stewart
This has been love without limits, hosted by us Madeline Stewart and Alistair Baldwin and produced by Eliza Hull, in partnership with SBS and Attitude Foundation. SBS team is Joel Supple and Max Gosford, recorded at session in progress.
