Greetings Dr Jean-Luc Chevillard. You have been involved with Tamil language and literature, and research for the past 35 years. How did it all start?
Well... it was just ‘chance’ – what we call in French LE HASARD. I have two degrees, one degree in Mathematics and one degree in Linguistic. At that time in France, every young man had to do military service. If you didn’t want to do military service, you could do civil service, so instead of going to the army you could do something else. So, I chose to do civil service and to teach Mathematics and I was sent to the French lycee of Pondichéry. So, in 1981 I was posted as a Maths teacher in the Lycée français in Pondicherry. Since I was doing linguistic, I decided to do field work and I decided to try to learn the local language so that I could be serious in my linguistic work.
How did you learn the language then?
Initially I came here with a tape recorder, and I went to Annamalai University and I bought a book called “Conversational Tamil” by the Late Kumarasamy Raja who was a Tamil linguist, and quickly I realised that the Tamil which was spoken in Pondicherry was not the same as the Tamil described in Kumarasamy Raja’s book. In the formal Tamil you say, பேசிக்கொண்டு (pēcikkoṇṭu) in Kumarasamy Raja’s book it might be பேசிக்கிட்டு (pēcikkiṭṭu), In Pondicherry it might have been [[பேசிக்கனு (pēcikkiṉu) or]] பேசினு (pēciṉu), so I decided to translate the book by Kumarasamy Raja from the STANDARD spoken dialect to Pondicherry dialect. To do that, I got in touch with many people who could speak of the local variety and that was the beginning of a long journey and at some point, I realised that it was better to do recordings of spontaneous segments so I started to record folk tales, ராஜா ராணி கதை (rājā rāṇi katai). So, stories starting like, ஒரு ஊரிலே ஒரு ராஜா (oru ūrilē oru rājā) and then at some point, I was recording the stories, may be 10 minutes and then writing down in a notebook in Tamil script and another person who was my informant writing down also in Tamil script what was in the recording and very often they would try to shift those to formal writings because you know spoken variety is often deprecated, it is considered as கொச்சைத் தமிழ் (koccait tamiḻ). So not as prestigious, so people try to replace what is actually said by something more formal. So, I was all the time navigating inside that diglossia what is called the இரட்டை வழக்கு (iraṭṭai vaḻakku), and trying to have a more precise idea of Tamil linguistic complex – all these varieties interacting and some standard in cinema. So, I also discovered Tamil movies. The first Tamil movie I saw at that time was அலைகள் ஓய்வதில்லை (alaikaḷ ōyvatillai). And then I was trying to grow my caucus of recorded stories, my grammatical understanding of them, so, for my linguistic studies I wrote a very small grammar of the corpus I was correcting for this folk tales, and I tried to find all the time new stories and at some point I had come in to contact with fishermen, and I went to fishermen village and asked for some stories and on one occasion, instead of giving me a story in ordinary Tamil, a ராஜா ராணி கதை (rājā rāṇi katai), I heard a story which was sung and they said it was a ராஜா கதை (rājā katai). It was called உம்மைக் கதை (um'maik katai). So, உம்மைக் கதை (um'maik katai) would mean in formal Tamil உண்மைக் கதை (uṇmaik katai). That means at the end of each statement somebody has to say உம் (um). So, in formal Tamil உம் (um) would be உம்காரம் (umkāram). So, the person who tells the story says something and the person who listens has to say உம் (um), and then he will say something more and the other person says உம் (um), meaning I am paying attention go on, I am paying attention go on. So that is with உம்மைக் கதை (um'maik katai), and with the ராஜா கதை (rājā katai), the singer was completely immersed in his singing and he would sing may be for an hour he will stop and so the story and recording was the பப்பரவாயன் கதை (papparavāyaṉ katai). And it started with செம்புக வீரா (cempuka vīrā). And it was quite an interesting story. Not that I understood the first time but I had transcribed it many times with the help of the informant. It was a fascinating story of people going in a big ship looking for someone and something happens and the fish is blugged by a big fish etc.…. and after that…. This all in the course of several years. ராஜா கதை (rājā katai) in the second year may be, in the third year I continued to go into this, but I discovered that my exploration of study was incomplete. I had some Tamil friends who had studied for diploma like புலவர் (pulavar), and set one year also to study books like நன்னூல் (naṉnūl). And also, Sangam literature. So, one of my friends sent me to a teacher, who was a blind teacher. He was living in Muthialpettai, which is just North of Pondicherry, part of Pondicherry state. And his name was Tamiḻavéḻ. He was living in Kutti Grameny theru in Muthialpettai. And he was blind, but he was a poet. He had composed poems and he knew Naṉnūl very well. So, I went to his house every day from twelve in the morning and he would explain to me (all the communication was in Tamil. He did not speak any other language). So, I would read a sutra, he would give some comment I would ask questions, he would answer, etc. So, we read the whole on Naṉnūl and at some point, I wanted to try to read the oldest text, தொல்காப்பியம் (tolkāppiyam), and I started to read the tolkāppiyam, with some of the University Professor, Professor Muthu Shanmugam Pillai. He had been teaching at Madurai Kamaraj University, but at that time he was in Pondicherry, because he had opened a Pondicherry branch of Dravidian Linguistic Association. And… so he opened that centre. And he accepted me as a linguist and he also knew ancient Tamil vernacular tradition. So, he accepted to teach me tolkāppiyam, so we started to read கிளவியாக்கம் (kiḻaviyākkam), which is the first chapter in the சொல்லதிகாரம் (collatikāram), the second book of தொல்காப்பியம் (tolkāppiyam), and uh… I was progressing in my linguistic study, I had done a Master degree, and when it came to choose a subject for PhD, I realised that being a foreigner that does not have Tamil as the mother tongue, probably it was better to try to do my PhD on Classical Tamil, rather than on spoken Tamil which had been my initial intention. The reason is that if you want to do field work in a language, you must have a very good ear. You must be capable of distinguishing sounds like புளி (puḷi), and புழி (puzhi) – as you know in Tamil Nadu, the distinction between sounds can be different in various places. In Madurai, they will pronounce the same way கிழவி (kizhavi) and கிளவி (kiḻavi), in Pondicherry, they will pronounce the same way புளி (puḷi), and புழி (puzhi), so if you want to do precise work, what you need is a seventh ear. And I realised that my hearing may not be good enough for doing Tamil phonetics. But, if I was working on Classical Tamil, I will deal with the same kind of questions but from a different perspective, and that’s why I decided to do my PhD on தொல்காப்பியம் (tolkāppiyam). You know that தொல்காப்பியம் (tolkāppiyam) has three books - எழுத்ததிகாரம் (eḻuttatikāram), சொல்லதிகாரம் (collatikāram), and பொருளதிகாரம் (poruḷatikāram), and I did my PhD on one of the commentaries of சொல்லதிகாரம் (collatikāram). A commentary composed in probably the thirteenth century. By somebody called Cēṉāvaraiyar. So, it took me quite a long time to write that PhD. I calculated that from the time I started to read collatikāram with Cēṉāvaraiyar’s commentary which was in 1984 until the time I submitted my PhD, it took seven years.
…and Who did you do your PhD with?
I did my PhD with a French Linguist, but also had some support from French Tamil specialist called François Gros, who was a Professor in a place called Ecole Pratique des Haute Études, in English EPHE. He was a Tamil specialist and he had made a translation of பரிபாடல் (paripāṭal) which has appeared in 1968.
So, when I was preparing my PhD at the same time I was working full time teaching Mathematics. Ah, so…. Because you have to make a living, and so I was earning my living my teaching Mathematics.
…and you taught Mathematics in French or in Tamil?
In French… Nah… my teaching of Mathematics in Tamil Nadu was only for two years and I thought in French because it was at Lycée français. Of course, most of the students were mainly Tamil speakers but their parents sent them to Lycée français so that they would increase their proficiency in French. So, in the classroom we did not speak Tamil, we spoke French. And when I went back to France, I taught Mathematics in a number of High School and at some point…
…so, when you went back to France you were already smitten by Tamil language, literature and so on?
Well I went back to France, but I would come back to India every summer. Every summer I would spend two months. So, my initial stay was from July 81 up to August 83 – long stay. And then I went in summer 84, summer 85, summer 86, summer 87, summer 88, etc. and then in 1990 December I submitted my PhD. And after that in Spring 1991 I was very lucky to be recruited by an institution called the École française d'Extrême-Orient (EFEO), so I quit teaching Mathematics and now I work full time on research, on linguistic research and after that I have shifted to another institution called the CNRS, French "National Centre for Scientific Research" and still a permanent researcher at CNRS. And the field in which I am working is not a field on Tamil studies, it is a field of history of Science - history of language Science. But of course, I am working on Tamil text. That’s from the perspective of history of Science, so what it is to make grammars for a language for it work.
When did you get interested in Kamil Zvelebil’s work?
It was very visible from the beginning of my work that I was aware that Zvelebil has done useful work in Tamil, he has a number of reference books, he has written a number of articles, and he was a linguist. So, if you wanted to go for Tamil, you could not avoid him you will always find Zvelebil, and try to read his books. Of course, if you are a westerner and you are not comfortable reading 500 pages in Tamil, you could read his books in the beginning because they are in English, and they are very widely read…. So, of course when you progress you realise that you have to go to the original text which Zvelebil has summarised for you. So, it is a network of people helping each other accessing another wider ocean of text.
You mentioned EFEO… I believe that we have interviewed another individual from that institution, Dr Vijayavenugopal on NeTamil project which is digitising text from palm leaf manuscripts.
Yes, yes. So, professor Vijayavenugopal is a well-respected linguist. He is competent in many fields including இலக்கணம் (ilakkaṇam). He has written some important books on eḻuttatikāram and naṉnūl. He is also well known epigraphist. Now he is involved in a project called Net Tamil for which the principal investigator is my wife, Eva Wilden. And they are located in two places, in Hamburg, as part of Hamburg University and in Pondicherry in the EFEO Centre. So, I am also involved in this project, although I am not paid on that project. Since this project decree concerns in the field I am working, which is ancient Tamil literature, as for me, ancient grammatical literature – Prof Vijayavenugopal is also part of the project. He is involved in the edition of புறநானூறு (puṟanāṉūṟu) and he is exploring all the manuscripts and first prints of புறநானூறு (puṟanāṉūṟu). Well that’s the NeTamil project.
We were talking about your PhD earlier. What did you do once you submitted your thesis, once you got your PhD?
So, I told you my PhD was in Cēṉāvaraiyar. PhD submitted in a French University, it’s in French. So, it’s quite a number of pages. It’s the translation of grammatical text and its commentary – three lines of Sutra, 30 lines of commentary, three lines of Sutra, 30 lines of commentary and it starts with உயர்திணை யென்மனார் மக்கட் சுட்டே (uyartiṇai yeṉmaṉār makkaṭ cuṭṭē) that is the first Sutra. So, I translated this into French. And it was my thesis. And when I was recruited by the EFEO, I came in touch with a great scholar, TV Gopala Iyer, and decided to verify with him everything it was my thesis. Because it is such a complicated text that there are many possibilities to misunderstand, and so you want to take every opportunity to make the thing better. So, I made a revision to my thesis and I spent many many hours with him asking him questions etc. And in 1996 the first part of my thesis came out as a book. And it was that book, published by the joint collection of EFEO and IFP - Institut Français de Pondichéry, so the collection called Le commentaire de Cēṉāvaraiyar sur le Collatikāram du tolkāppiyam and my thesis appeared in that book. And it was that book that was awarded the K Anbazhagan Prize. The task of choosing was given to a group of scholars, headed by late Professor V I Subramaniam - வடசேரி ஐயம்பெருமாள் சுப்பிரமணியம் (vaṭacēri aiyamperumāḷ cuppiramaṇiyam), who was the founder of the Dravidian Linguistic Association, and also one of the first Vice Chancellors of a Tamil University. And he was a great scholar of Tamil, so he was the head of that committee… mmmm… that’s how my thesis was awarded a prize.
You mentioned a few names… that triggers a question in my mind. As an outsider to the system in India, what do you think of the Caste System?
Oh… Well... that is a very specific topic. In fact, I have a standard answer when it comes to caste. I don’t believe in caste. I am a French citizen. And in France, Caste does not exist. So, I refuse to believe that caste exists – that is something objective. I know that it is part of history. I am the owner of a mailing list called CTamil and I am the person who controls the messages sent on that, and I decided that I didn’t want any discussion of caste in CTamil. I know that in theory caste does has been abolished but in practice it still does and plays an important role in many things. But, since I was born in France in an environment where caste does exist, it is not a subject that I want to discuss. If I was an Indian citizen, I’ll be in a revolutionary camp to fight against the belief in cast, but being a foreigner there is nothing I can do. But I never tried to find out which caste people are, or in some cases, for instant if the name was V.M. Subrahmanya Iyer I will understand what Iyer means. But I want to consider it as a thing of the past like in France before the revolution there was nobility. But now, that does not exist. There are no Dukes etc.
Coming to present day technologies… what do you think of automated translators, like the tool Google has made available?
Well there might be some, but I… anyway I don’t really don’t trust them for French for instance, I will never try to use any such tool to go between European languages… so, I would not really expect it to give very good results for Tamil. I know it is an important area of research, and that by doing this one can learn things about languages. But, whether one can obtain a reliable result before hundred or two hundred years, I am not sure. Maybe I am too sceptical, I am very interested in computers, but I don’t believe that we can everything through computers.
Were there any moments in your life that you felt proud of yourself for associating yourself with Tamil language and its people?
Yes… So… I am very often very happy. Because, as I told you that my interest is primarily in languages. When I was young, I wanted to know every language in the world. And of course, that is impossible, so before you like to know every language, as a consolation which is to do linguistic, which is the closest you can get to knowing every language. Once you learn the languages the natural way, you are subject to the universal law of language in which language change. And when you learn the other way, you are taking part in a collective human effort, which is to fight against language change. So, it is because of this duality, between innovative of language change and the desire to keep things stable, that you do such a complex edifice. So… this is why we have a diglossia - we have such a beautiful caucus of Tamil poetry, and ancient Tamil poetry. When you try to measure the effort, which has been made to fight against language change, to fight against the fact that individuals believe that one generation will not speak the same way as the previous generation, you get a great admiration for that effort. If you read the book தமிழ் இலக்கண நூல்கள் (tamiḻ ilakkaṇa nūlkaḷ) which was compiled by the late scholar Sa vē cuppiramaṇiyam Subramaniam, who died recently – and it contains 41 Tamil treatises. It starts with tilapia but it goes up to the nineteenth century with works like Saminathan and it contains works from the 18th century தொன்னூல் விளக்கம் (toṉṉūl viḷakkam) and it contains works like வெண்பா பாட்டியல் (veNpaa paattiyal) etc. So, what was it which made the number of remarkable people compose those treatise in the field of Tamil ilakkaṇam? But they were part of this huge effort of preserving the mental library, a collection of text which will be immediately available to the people who made the effort to learn them. So, it’s an admirable collective effort and that effort has taken place in Tamil Nadu… my interest – I am a foreigner, my interest is a general interest of languages but I have seen mere remarkable example of people preserving, increasing a collection of beautiful text which they make the effort to learn as students, or to increase when they became teachers or poets. So, progressively a huge body of text has been created, and that is something very remarkable. If we examine in detail, we will find that it has many layers, and that its hundreds of varieties of Tamil. Tamil from the first century is not the same as the Tamil from the fifth century not the same as seventh century. So, it’s Tamil one, Tamil tow, Tamil three, Tamil four…. hundreds of varieties of magnificent landscape. Very difficult to get a complete view, but it’s a very worthy challenge, and on top of that it has a very beautiful musical dimension. Because all these texts that are cited or chanted are some are most beautiful in performance. So now a days often people will see things on a shelf – on a shelf the book will be something dead, but தேவாரம் (tēvāram) is not something on a shelf, it is useful being on a shelf, but it’s even much more beautiful if you had somebody singing and if you can understand what is sung and if you can yourself be somehow connected to the chain of transmission, then it transcends - one can enjoy at the same time தேவாரம் (tēvāram) and திவ்வியப்பிரபந்தம் (tivviyappirapantam). And so, and somehow, as I am seeing things from outside, that’s why I am all the time very pleased to study such a beautiful field that has so many accomplishments.
What is your most favoured or treasured Tamil text or poem?
Sometimes you can derive pleasure from understanding something which was very difficult to understand. So, you crack a nut which is very difficult to crack. So, for instance when I was translating தொல்காப்பியம் (tolkāppiyam), there was statement உணர்ச்சி வாயில் உணர்வோர் வலித்தே (Uṇarcci vāyil uṇarvōr valittē). It’s a very short statement, but at the same time it is very mysterious. And the explanation is indirect. So, when I somehow when I understood that line, I was very happy. Or the chapter called உரியியல் (uriyiyal) about உரிச்சொல் (uriccol) and when I started to progressively understand that is my first attempt at making a dictionary, a dictionary containing 120 words – the difficult words I was very proud to understand something that was difficult to understand and which was at the same time gave roots of the Tamil lexicography tradition. And then when I started to read குறுந்தொகை (kuṟuntokai) I realised that I could memorise poem like கழனி மாஅத்து விளைந்து உகு தீம்பழம், பழன வாளை கதூஉம் ஊரன், எம் இல் பெருமொழி கூறித், தம் இல் கையும் காலும் தூக்கத் தூக்கும் ஆடிப் பாவை போல, மேவன செய்யும், தன் புதல்வன் தாய்க்கே (kaḻaṉi mā'attu viḷaintu uku tīmpaḻam, paḻaṉa vāḷai katū'um ūraṉ, em il perumoḻi kūṟit, tam il kaiyum kālum tūkkat tūkkum āṭip pāvai pōla, mēvaṉa ceyyum, taṉ putalvaṉ tāykkē), so when I realised that I could make this my own or I could become part of that transmission, I was happy. But I was even more happy when I discovered Tamil which is sung. And I realised that it was accessible to me to learn to sing பித்தா பிறை சூடி (pittā piṟai cūṭi) or to learn to sing தோடுடைய செவியன் விடையேறியோர் தூவெண்மதி சூடி (tōṭuṭaiya ceviyaṉ viṭaiyēṟiyōr tūveṇmati cūṭi), and then when I discovered that there were 20 or 22 different பண் (paṇ) which are musical modes, whilst in Western music there are only major modes and minor modes, but in South Indian music there are many more modes I was very happy – so, all the time I am very happy.
What are you currently working on?
Well, at the moment I am immersed in a huge task… so I mentioned TV Gopala Iyer. He was given the task of compiling what would become தமிழ் இலக்கணப் பேரகராதி (tamiḻ ilakkaṇap pērakarāti). He knew தொல்காப்பியம் (tolkāppiyam) very well. He knew நன்னூல் (naṉnūl) very well. But he had also edited இலக்கண விளக்கம் (ilakkaṇa viḷakkam), இலக்கண கொத்து (ilakkaṇa kottu). He had edited thousands of pages grammatical text and he was very competent also in literature. He has made an edition of தேவாரம் (tēvāram) and திருமங்கையாள்வார் (tirumaṅkaiyāḷvār). He had written a commentary on the பெரியார் திருமொழி (periyār tirumoḻi). So, in his இலக்கணப் பேரகராதி (ilakkaṇap pērakarāti) which came in book form in 2004, there are 4,794 pages and there are 13,895 entries. So, for all the parts of தமிழ் இலக்கணம் (tamiḻ ilakkaṇam), such எழுத்து, சொல், அகம், புறம், யாப்பு, அணி, பாட்டியல், மரபு, சந்தம், விருத்தம், (eḻuttu, col, akam, puṟam, yāppu, aṇi, pāṭṭiyal, marapu, cantam, viruttam,), etc. Gopala Iyer was working on his தமிழ் இலக்கணப் பேரகராதி (tamiḻ ilakkaṇap pērakarāti), his younger brother T S Gangatharan had made an English translation of his brother’s encyclopaedia. And that English translation has not yet appeared in print and unfortunately, they are both dead. But we have the manuscript so I am in the process of making a bilingual edition of தமிழ் இலக்கணப் பேரகராதி (tamiḻ ilakkaṇap pērakarāti), and at the moment I am busy putting everything in XML format. You know that now a days if you want to use things efficiently, you have to have structured text. So, we are converting everything to XML format so that we will be able to have a very usable encyclopaedia. But it takes a lot of time. I have been immersed in to this since October, and I can foresee that it will take many more months. That’s one of the things I am doing. Another thing is a translation project. I’m in the process of translating from Latin into English – A text in Latin about Tamil. Nowadays only a few people can read Latin and the people really who can read Tamil. So, I am trying to make this text accessible to a general audience.
I guess it is topical to ask you about ஏறு தழுவுதல் (ēṟu taḻuvutal) or சல்லிக்கட்டு (callikkaṭṭu). Have you come across ancient Tamil text about it?
Everybody who is interested in ancient Tamil literature, knows that in கலித்தொகை (kalittokai) that it took place. And also, in சிலப்பதிகாரம் (cilappatikāram) there is a chapter called ஆச்சியர் குரவை (ācciyār kuravai). Which is very interesting because it talks about seven bulls and there are seven girls, and each girl has been taking care of one bull. It is said in the chapter ஆச்சியர் குரவை (ācciyār kuravai) whichever boy who wants to marry the girl has to subdue a bull. But, that’s not the main interest in that chapter because in fact, it is about music and the seven girls are used for an explanation of Tamil music because they are supposed to impersonate the seven notes in Tamil, which were at that time not called ச ரி க ம ப த நி ச (ca ri ka ma pa ta ni ca), but குரல், துத்தம் (kural, tuttam), etc., and they take place in a circle over twelve positions like zodiac. சிலப்பதிகாரம் (cilappatikāram) is one of the most beautiful work of Tamil literature. I have heard that Professor Hart seems to think it is ராமாயணம் (rāmāyaṇam) of கம்பன் (kampaṉ), I would think that the most beautiful is சிலப்பதிகாரம் (cilappatikāram). It’s a very difficult text, and it has a few entry points on ancient Tamil music because it contains so much information and it has as many things about Tamil culture those days, including what was not yet called ஜல்லிக்கட்டு (jallikkaṭṭu) but ஏறு தழுவுதல் (ēṟu taḻuvutal). And so, yes சிலப்பதிகாரம் (cilappatikāram), கலித்தொகை (kalittokai). Does that answer your question?
Quite a few Diaspora Tamils live in your home country France. Are you in touch with them?
Yes, yes, I think that Diaspora Tamil is something very important. I am in touch with some Tamil friends in France. I take part in several meetings organised by Tamils living in France. I know that in France there are some Tamil Solai, where some Tamil children have classes and training in Tamil language. I know that there are all sorts of efforts which are very efficient. So that the community… officially I think there are hundred thousand Tamils in France, but in reality, I think there are close to 250,000. And the committee is very much alive and very active. I am also in touch with Tamil Diaspora in many other countries for many years. I follow many Tamil events in other countries, Diaspora Tamils in the USA or other countries… I am in touch with a lot of them. Quite happy to see that we are very much alive, and Internet has seen many things for languages. Many things will not be considerable if the Internet did not exist.
You have been involved with research that involves a lot of travel, and for a long period of time. How supportive has been your family, with your endeavours?
Yes, my family has been very supportive of what I am doing. My wife is a specialist of classical Tamil also. She has made critical edition of நற்றிணை (naṟṟiṇai), குறுந்தொகை (kuṟuntokai) and now she is working on the critical edition of அகநானூறு (akanāṉūṟu). And in 1981 when I discovered that I would come to Pondicherry, I was twenty-five. So, I told that to my family. When the younger sister of my maternal grandfather, so my grand aunt, at that time she was seventy, told me that she remembered that an uncle who had been in India, in Pondicherry, and I made some search and I discovered that indeed going back fifth generation, so the younger brother of my grandmother of my grandmother who had been born in 1801 – he had become a missionary, and had come to India, and when he was in Pondicherry, he was one of the two people compiling Tamil-French dictionary. His name was Mousset Et Dupuis. So, in fact, several generation earlier, somebody in my family was involved with Tamil and you can still buy his dictionary. And some interesting feature in that dictionary there are used in my area of France but which would not be understood in Paris. So, you see, exploration of language varieties and dialect is also in France and every country is a mosaic. And, I have been a part of that mosaic through my family for a long time. But, I don’t say that I believe in reincarnation, but in that framework, you could see it like that.
Thank you very much Dr Jean-Luc Chevillard, for giving us this time and your detailed responses.
Thank you very much. It’s very stimulating to talk about these things with somebody. Will be in touch… bye.
