What happens then if the name part of the world knows you by isn’t the name your family calls you, or gave you?
Do you live with hearing people constantly butcher the pronunciation of your name, or start ordering coffees as 'Anna'?
In this episode of Like Us, hosts Anna Yeon, Noè Harsel, Zione Walker-Nthenda talk about their changing relationships with their names, and discover a random connection between them.
I felt most comfortable with the compartmentalisation. I have Anna, the English name for the outside world, and my Korean name is for my family. And I and I really wanted that control private and public.Anna Yeon
Follow Like Us in the SBS Radio app, at www.sbs.com.au/likeus or in your favourite podcast app such as Apple Podcasts or Spotify. New episodes in the series will be released weekly.
Recorded and edited by Michael Burrows, Brand Music
Transcript
Noè: We would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land we are broadcasting from, the Boonwurrung people of the Kulin Nation, we pay our respects to their Elders past and present. We would like to also acknowledge all Traditional Owners from all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander lands you are listening from.
What do you get when a Japanese-Jewish woman, , a Korean woman and a Nigerian-Malawian woman get together to chat about living, working and raising families in Australia? You get ‘Like Us’, a podcast that is Anna Song, Noè Harsel and Zione Walker-Nthenda — 3 Australian women from different cultural backgrounds, discussing their personal relationship with Australia and Australia’s relationship with them.
Noè: Alright, let's talk about, let's talk about names and interesting names first names, last names… Anna Song. Tell me Anna Song because I'm loving watching this journey. I mean, we've all got interesting names. Zione, don't think I'm passing, you by.
Zione: We’re gonna get to it.
Noè: But Anna song, I'm loving watching this name because Song, I mean that's, that's like a Smith?
Anna: It's not quite a Smith much.
Noè: Okay, I'm sorry.
Anna: The Lee and Kim, that’s more the Smith equivalent…
Noè: Okay, so for Korean. Let’s specify our ethnicities here.
Anna: That's right. Claim the identity.
Noè: Tell me what you're doing, cause I'm loving this. I don't think Zione knows exactly what you're doing.
Anna: Okay, perfect. So first of all, I don't know why, but a lot of Australian friends of mine love saying my full name.
Noè: I love it too. Not only do I love it, but it is capitalised. Anna Song!
Zione: I always say, Anna Song. I never just say, Anna. You can't just say, Anna, it's a celebrity name.
Noè: It's a perfect name. Yeah, the perfect name.
Anna: You know, catching up having drinks and, Anna Song! Okay, well yes, that is me. So Anna is a name. I gave myself and I was about 13 living in New Zealand going to a new school. I wanted to have an English name because for about three years prior to that living in New Zealand, I, I just use my Korean name and no one, literally, no one at school could pronounce it properly, and I didn't enjoy the experience of my name getting butchered in its pronunciation.
Noè: Can I ask why you chose Anna?
Anna: Yeah Anna. So I didn't want to just pick any random name and Anna is my Catholic baptism name.
Zione: Okay. Okay, so it's a legitimate it legitimately your name.
Anna: Okay my grandmother actually told me I should be named Anna for my Christening because she is named Anna.
Noè: Okay, so it’s got heritage.
Anna: That's right. And I wanted to, you know, show the world that I have pedigree, man.
Zione: Anna-type pedigree though.
Noè: You belong.
Anna: Yeah, that's right. And I love the experience of coming across people that have the same name as me.
Noè: I hear that okay, I totally get that.
Anna: It breaks ice.
Noè: That's beautiful but now you are, that Zione what you're doing?
Anna: Yeah, okay. So it still feels like a new outfit I'm trying on and I don't know whether it quite fits yet. But for my creative writing, I'm trying out a pen name. And that is Anna. Yeon and Yeon is the first name of my Korean given name and it carries the meaning of sort of feminine, you know, beauty is a very stereotypical sort of, you know, name you give a character you use for a girl's name. And I want to really claim my Korean identity and have it, you know, upfront and screaming.
Zione: Oh wow. So will you be Anna Yeon Song?
Anna: I just, I just want it to be Anna Yeon.
Noè: I think it's amazing. It's really amazing.
Zione: So will it be a hyphened? Like Anna-Yeon or too separate? Oh not yet?
Noè: No? It’s literally Anna Yeon.
Anna: Yeon – Y E O N
Noè: And the character you are using is the character that says…?
Anna: Beauty. Beauty. It has the character for, so it's derived out of a classic Chinese character and it has the character of female, mouth and Moon.
Noè: And how do you found that? It is it is quite a big thing to do to rename yourself now, you know, as an adult. So how does that feel doing that? And you've and you've put it out there in the world. So I've seen your I've seen your Instagram in your book reviews?
Anna: So I literally this is about like couple of weeks old.
Noè: How does it feel? Does feel right? Does it feel strange?
Anna: It's new. It feels new.
Zione: So you've never answered to Yeon you were growing up, when you were much younger?
Anna: So, I was always called my Korean name, until I gave myself the name, Anna. You know, living in New Zealand and in an English-speaking environment, but this feels like something completely different to that because I'm also claiming my creative identities.
Zione & Noè: Yeah, yeah.
Noè: I’m just fascinated by that whole giving up of a name and then in reclaiming it again. In that gap, which I know is decades, right? Have you ever forgotten your name? Like so have you ever forgotten how you're being identified and called?
Anna: No, no. So, I think until this point, what it was is, I felt most comfortable with the compartmentalisation. I have Anna, the English name for the outside world, and my Korean name is for my family. And I and I really wanted that control private and public.
Zione: And never the twain shall meet? Or did the people in either world sometimes, like in your family, did they ever address you as Anna?
Anna: No. Not really. Unless there were in front of my friends and knew…
Zione: So they knew that that was your public facing identity, so we will call you Anna in public.
Anna: Zione, that's actually, I never thought about that. I never had a conversation with my family about that,
Zione: But they understood it, unspoken in an unspoken way.
Anna: I guess so, I felt like in front of my school friends or colleagues, my mum would say Anna, pointing to me, not use my Korean name.
I never, actually consciously thought about that, Zione.
Noè: Wow, that's amazing. So incredible. And so even with those sort of relationships and really personal relationships, did anyone know your Korean name that wasn't in your family?
Anna: I have been questioned on it, a number of times. Sometimes, you know, as a joke like sometimes more seriously and sometimes by acquaintances and, you know, almost strangers.
Noè: And yeah, so now you're bleeding, okay? So now you're consciously bleeding, both your personal, your, your, I guess outward facing, your artistic identity...
Zione: You know, your internal world, right? They are all merging.
Noè: This is quite, is this confronting? Or you're, you're really confident that this is the right, the way you want to go?
Anna: I don't know what I'm doing, but it kind of feels, right?
Noè: Yeah, I love watching it. I think it's great. and I love watching how it's I'm curious to see how its manifesting, the personally I love watching. I think it's a great thing to watch. It is a great thing to see
Zione: Isn't that part of it though? That you're exploring your creative self, right? You have to be authentic in that world. Part of that journey to authenticity requires you reclaiming, other parts of yourself and merging the two like making them all integrated?
Anna: That, that vulnerability we get is the prerequisite to honest, creative content. And also something about leaving behind this thick layer of defence mechanism.
Noè: And a safety, net, a bit. Because what you were saying before about, having everyone being able to say your name and stuff
Zione: And meeting other Anna's.
Noè: Which is something you wouldn’t know, Zione. So, how many Zione’s have you met?
Zione: I met one Zione. Okay. So I've never met a Zione in my life. So I've just completely always believed that it was a unique name, right? And then, my father who's originally from, Malawi, I go to his country without him, and then I meet a Zione. And I am like, hey, I felt really jealous, like how dare you?
Noè: Of course, I understand you, right?
Zione: And so I'm like, this is me! It’s like a Madonna!
Anna: It’s like Madonna, finding another Madonna.
Noè: Well, she'll be likely to find another Madonna, then Zione finding another Zione.
Zione: So I am feeling really jealous and quite confronted by this and I'm sussing her out. Like how Zione is she really? Like there’s an essence of a Zione, and I'm not convinced you deserve to be one, right?
Noè: She’s not related right, she’s not realted?
Zione: Not related just a random.
Noè: Random. Even worse.
Anna: That’s incredible to live your life thinking your name is entirely, hundred percent yours.
Noè: One-hundred per cent! No one should have it.
Zione: But right, so I'm with my cousin. I think he is, or Uncle a relative. Yeah. And I'm like, after we left and I was feeling really confronted by meeting this other Zione, like how dare she have my name, and this, that and the other, he’s just watching me and he's like, Zione, you know it’s just like Mabel, like nobody answers it anymore, it’s such an old-fashioned name and you shouldn’t feel special.
I’m like, what? And so that was the end of that conversation. I'm like okay, okay, that put me in my box.
Noè: I asked a really bad question?
Anna: You’re not a Mabel!
Noè: Yes, and you’re so far from Mabel, it’s not even, which mind you is a glorious name, Mabel, and Zione.
Zione: Thank you.
Noè: Ask a question about. I hate this question, what does it mean…?
Zione: Absolutely! I was just about to volunteer. So Zione apparently means something like, this is how my mother interpreted it, and she's not Malawian and doesn’t speak the language, but apparently, he says it means: here life is, experience it. Go out there and experience the world.
Zione: Yes, yes, but when I grew up in Nigeria, because there was a connection, well, an understanding of sort of biblical stuff. When people would always, because it's not a Nigerian name, right? So when people would always ask us, how do you spell your name? I'd always say Zion with an E at the end and that made sense because people knew Mount Zion and but in Australia that context doesn't exist. So I instead say Leone with a Z or Zed, I kind of have to adapt to the different environments because I like Zion with an e at the end. Then they're like what's Zion? Where's that, what does that mean?
Noè: Yeah, just because I'm thinking what’s Leone?
Zione: Yeah. Yeah, it looks that it all depends on your content. So here's Leone with a Z. Yeah. Okay. I get that but then they'll spell it. Yeah. Yeah. It's fine.
Noè: And did you have to have people mispronounce it?
Zione: You know what? I don't pronounce my name.
Noè Tell me.
Zione: Alright. So I have never said it, correctly. So again when I went to Malawi, I was told well apart from hey it's a Mabel, don't feel too cool. It's by the way, you don't say it right either.
Anna: Oh my god. How old were you? When this was all happening?
Zione: Twenty-one.
Noè: Oh how mortifying.
Zione: So apparently it's something like Zio-neé, something like that.
Anna: Do you have to bring your shoulders into it?
Zione: I don't know.
Noè: It’s a whole body experience.
Zione: Zio-neé, it’s like the whole vibe.
Noè: And there’s the facial expressions.
Zione: You know what I mean? So I'm like, so when he did it, I'm thinking I can't do that. You know what? And I’ve said, Zione my whole life. So that's that. It's done. Sorry.
Noè: So, no one ever corrected you when you said your name?
Zione: Never. Ever. Because my mother was none the wiser of courses. That's right. Yes, yes and my dad my parents were divorced and he's also very chilled out kind of person.
Noè: He probably figured she likes it. That’s the way she likes it that way, who cares if it’s not Zio-neé?
Zione: Yes! You want to be Zione, you’re Zione!
Noè: Be who you want to be. Let me not tell you who you are. That's amazing. Oh my God
Zione: And you don't have the whole culture around you correcting you so nobody knows.
Noè: See it's really interesting because I totally also appreciate believing you were the only one with that name because I also believe that I was only I believed I was the only person with the name, Noè. And I felt that I was entitled to be the only person
Anna: Have you found another Noè?
Zione: And I'll tell you, I have, recently.
Noè: I'd love to hear that. Okay. Because what's happened to me is I was actually named after someone. And you're going to love this. So, I was named after a feminist revolutionary and her name was Ito Noè. And she was at the early 1900's in Japan. And this is, the way my mother tells the story, right? So she watched her lover get stoned to death. That's the story. Actually, that's the story. Drop mic. See you later. That's your name. I'm just like no pressure. No nothing. Right Mom, great story. I love that. And then and so I'm like, thinking, that's just not what I want.
Zione: When did you find out about this?
Noè: from the moment I was popped out. So, I always knew that, that was great. But then I never sort of kind of, and never really understood. Whatever. That all makes sense. That's all great. But then later on, I found out that there is an on the back of the Jack Daniel's bottle because there's a whole bunch of these, you know, handlebar moustache white men named with the middle name Noe and Noe is like a Spanish name. There's a street in San Francisco called Noe.
Zione: Wow. And do they say it the same way?
Noè: I don't think so. And there's also a bunch of Vietnamese men named Noe.
Anna: The applications of the name your mother gave you a truly universal.
Noè: Right so you know, thanks Mom, that was amazing. But tell me about who you met? Maybe we're related.
Zione: Oh no, this is legit right?
Anna: In Australia?
Zione: No. So my dad's new girlfriend. Her name is Tomoko. In Japan, and her daughter's name is Noè!
Anna: After the same person?
Zione: I don't know. I didn't ask.
Noè: I do know that there's someone actually In Japan who was named after me.
Anna: Not, after you, after the feminist.
Noè: No, actually, there is a woman. Oh, this is so weird.
Zione: I mean, how old is she?
Noè: I'm gonna have to find all of that out. I'll have to ask my mother. What if live on this podcast?
Zione: Because I think this person might be in her twenties? Could that be?
Noè: It's possible. She’s at uni…
Anna: Oh my goodness.
Noè: It's all possible. Let me ask my mother because my mother was telling me that a friend of hers…
Anna: You two are related and you met each other for the first time today!
Noè: This is the freakiest thing. My mother told me that a friend of hers daughter named her child after because I love my name and the characters in my name. That is the freakiest thing, ever?
Zione: Do you know why that could be possible? Do you know why? So, so hang on. So a friend of your mother's?
Noè: A friend of my mother's daughter. Has a daughter named Noè.
Zione: So that means your mother's friend’s…
Anna: Is Zione’s…
All three: Dad's girlfriend?
Noè: Yes, daughter.
Anna: It’s Melbourne. Everybody knows everyone in Melbourne, six degrees of separation.
Zione: This is in Japan though. 120 million.
Noè: That's freaky.
Anna: See, this is what’s good about having special, unique names.
Noè: How would you ever find this out? Oh my God. It's the
Zione: I’m having heart palpitations, but I'm going to ask my dad as soon as I leave here.
Noè: I need to ask my mother, who the mother of Noè is. And if that's Tomoko. Then that is your dad's girlfriend.
Zione: Wow.
Noè: love it, love it.
Anna: But, you know, speaking of having special names, I, I was just it was so hilarious when we were ordering burgers, before we sat down to tape this, and they were all three of us. And when the person at the restaurant asked for under what name, all three of us almost in unison said Anna!
Zione: Absolutely week without explanation. We all understood. It has to be Anna. Everybody can spell Anna. Everybody knows Anna do we want to go there, Noè?
Noè: There's a whole conversation with our names, isn't it? Where does that come from? That's a beautiful name
Zione: Thank you! I mean, we weren’t ready for that.
Noè: A whole world of pain just for a take away.
Anna: When you're hungry and when you want some burger and chips you just don't want that.
Zione: No no he was a very nice man but no.
Anna: Stick with Anna.
Zione: Yeah, absolutely.
Noè: Thanks for listening to LIKE US, a new podcast by SBS. You’ll find more episodes of LIKE US on the SBS website, sbs.com.au/likeus. You can also subscribe to LIKE US from the SBS Radio app, Apple or Google podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Your hosts are Noe Harsel, Anna Song and Zione Walker-Nthenda.
We are produced and engineered by Michael Burrows at Brand Music and would like to also thank everyone at SBS Radio, especially Caroline Gates, for their help & support.
