I love being older. . I think it's because the more I live, the more mistakes I make, the wiser I am.Duang Tengtrirat
Hosted by Yumi Stynes, SEEN is a podcast series about the trailblazers who persist and succeed without positive role models in mainstream culture.
In this season you'll meet trailblazers like pro surfer Pauline Menczer, renowned artist Lindy Lee, community chef Duang Tengritrat, Tiwi Island Sistagirl Crystal Love Johnson, and more. Hear how these women defy convention as they grow older.
Follow SEEN on the SBS Audio website or app, Spotify and Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Credits
Host: Yumi Stynes
Producers: Laura Brierley Newton, Olivia O'Flynn
Sound Design and Mix: Ravi Gupta
Executive Producer: Kate Montague and Lorna Clarkson
Theme Music: Yeo
Art: Evi O Studios
SBS Team: Joel Supple, Max Gosford and special thanks to Caroline Gates
Original concept by: Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn
Transcript
Duang TENGTRIRAT: I love being older. . I think it's because the more I live, the more mistakes I make, the wiser I am.
I feel powerful as an older person. I hold my own. I don't apologize for what I say. I don't apologize for what I do. I don't apologize for my choices because I think I've had all these years behind me to help me make good decisions now.
(Theme music)
Yumi STYNES (Voiceover): I'm Yumi Stynes and this is SEEN, a podcast celebrating trailblazers who persist and succeed despite having no role models to guide their way....
This season, I decided to centre women who are thriving in their third act.
And what we’ll learn is that a lot of these cool-ass chicks do similar things: they persist.
They don’t give up in the face of rejection, mockery, invalidation and discrimination.
And they build friendships and community - surrounding themselves with people who delight in one another’s company.
Because what’s the point of growing old if we can’t live it experiencing delight?
(Fade out theme music)
We start by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we record... the Cammeraygal people and Gadigal people, and their elders past and present.
(Music)
Duang Tentrirat is from a small village in Thailand and has become a leader in her community in the country Victorian town of Castlemaine.
Talking to her made me genuinely excited about what’s ahead.
It also made me want to move to Castlemaine - where Duang now lives - to spend the rest of my days hanging out with her and feasting on her inspiration.
As a very young girl growing up in a tiny village called Nan in Thailand, Duang learnt about responsibility.
(Music)
TENGTRIRAT: I was born into a family of Chinese immigrants who came from not having enough to eat in Yunnan.
And my grandparents just wanted my parents to work really hard in order to, to build themselves up. And my parents expected the same thing of me. and I'm number eight of nine children. And so each one of us had a job to do. And that's all I can remember of my childhood, was working. But I didn't have anything else, to compare it to, so I was quite happy to learn as much as I could.
STYNES (Voiceover): So… from the age of five Duang had her job. It was to grow vegetables and then take them to the market to sell.
TENGTRIRAT: And the amount of money that I made mattered to my family. So if I made enough money with a certain threshold, I was to buy, one leg of chicken to bring home.
And if the earnings didn't reach that threshold, I was to buy one block of tofu to bring home, And this is a family of 11, you know. and so I didn't feel that the job that I had was trivial. It was really important.
STYNES (Voiceover): As well as working at the market Duang attended the local school, reading everything she could get her hands on.
Because young Duang had two big ambitions.
TENGTRIRAT: I worked from morning to night, and then I read the newspaper, the only newspaper that came to my school, the number one goal was so that I didn't have to work from morning to night. And number two was I wanted to know what life was like outside of Nan. Uh, my goal in life was to leave Nan and go somewhere.
STYNES (Voiceover): In the late 1940s, America had established the ‘American Field Service Scholarship’. Students chosen were able to spend a year abroad in a type of exchange program - staying with host families and going to school in America.
Duang heard about this and saw an opportunity to see more of the world. So she sat for the exam and won a scholarship to go to New York.
TENGTRIRAT: I was the first person in the town of Nan that left the country to go abroad.
At that time, I actually had no idea where New York was or its importance.
STYNES: How old were you?
TENGTRIRAT: I was sixteen, yeah, just after my sixteenth birthday.
So I left on a lorry truck. To take me from Nan to a train station, which was three hours away. And then I got on the train and went to Bangkok. It was my first trip to Bangkok. And I stayed there for two nights. And got on a plane, and then came to New York.
(Music)
And my family picked me up at the airport at JFK and it was 1967.
STYNES: No way, are you serious?
TENGTRIRAT: Oh, yes.
STYNES (Voiceover): The bravery of Duang, as a 16 year old girl from a small village in Thailand, to land in New York like this, blows my mind!
She’s kind of like that movie Yes Man where she just says yes to every offer, every opportunity!
TENGTRIRAT: The second night that I was there, my American sister had to go work at an opera. And she said to me, why don't you come with me to go usher at an opera? And I said, what is an opera? And she said, well, I can't explain it, you just come. And I went to the opera and became an usher that summer at the opera house.
And I just thought, oh my God, I had never ever heard any music like an opera before. And I didn't know if there was anything between Thai music and opera. I had heard of nothing.
STYNES: What did you feel going through all these new experiences?
TENGTRIRAT: I thought that I had died and went to heaven. I just, I just took everything in. At the same time, I wasn't very good in English. I hardly had any spoken English. I could read and write, but no one understood what I was saying, nor did I understand what anyone else was saying either.
Luckily, I had a very compassionate, understanding family. That really helped me. Yeah, so I finished last year in high school. I was a senior in high school in New York. And I managed to pass all the exams and got a certificate from the high school.
STYNES (Voiceover): Note that down, because as you learn more about Duang, you’ll realise she never does ok. She never “scrapes by”. She brings to every challenge a custom of excellence.
(Music)
After her year-long adventure, Duang had to leave the city of New York, a city full of non-stop excitement and stimulation... and go back to her small rural village of Nan.
STYNES: What was it like to come back from that huge experience back to your little village?
TENGTRIRAT: God. It was really hard, and I actually didn't want to talk about this part for a long, long time. But now I think that it is a good lesson for anyone who goes abroad or go somewhere with a different culture, is that the reentry is a lot harder than the, than going. So while nothing in Nan had changed, but I had changed.
So Nan still didn't have any running water, didn't have any electricity. My family had never heard of a refrigerator, let alone understanding what it was. And as a 17 year old, I thought that I was too good to come back to Nan. But Nan wasn't going to change itself for me. And I wasn't able to change myself for Nan.
So I went through a year of Terrible mental breakdown, And there was no Western doctor in the town. So I saw many traditional Thai doctors and Charmin and those sort of doctors. And then, at the end of the year, one, Western trained doctor came to Nan. And my mother took me to see him, and he whispered in my mother's ear that he thought I had a brain tumor.
But he told me that I had no brain tumor. But it was the only thing that my mother could accept without feeling a lot of shame. So the treatment was to send me to Bangkok to enter a mental institution. So, unbeknownst to myself, or to my family, I was put on the train, and I went to Bangkok, and went to a mental institution, so that I could get better from what I was feeling,
STYNES (Voiceover): Mental health was not really understood at that time in Nan. And nor in Australia for that matter - let’s be real!
A family member having any type of depression was seen as incredibly shameful for the family. So this doctor understood that the best way to get Duang treatment was to lie to both her and her parents… and then organise to send her to Bangkok to a mental institution.
So Duang, still a teenager, was sent alone to Bangkok, with no clear information about where she was going.
TENGTRIRAT: But when I got to the mental hospital, I knew that it was a mental illness because everybody else who was in there was suffering from one thing or another.
STYNES: What was it like in there?
TENGTRIRAT: I remember the days were very boring and I was asked to do things such as, um, puzzles, solve problems, um, mostly logical problems, none of which I could do. And there was not much treatment, I think, in those days. I'm talking about 50 years ago in Thailand. Um, treatment with mental illness was just not very, not very sophisticated or not up to date, really.
Yeah, so I must have been out of it because I cannot tell you now how long I was in there. Whether it was months or weeks, yeah.
STYNES (Voiceover): Duang had a brother studying medicine in Bangkok who'd go in daily to check on her at the hospital.
He had a better understanding of what was happening to Duang, and hatched a plan that leveraged her academic cleverness to get her out.
TENGTRIRAT: One day he came with a package of exams for me to take and he said, this is an examination for you to go to Australia. And I say, Oh, what would I be doing in Australia?
You see it? It's a nursing scholarship. You can go to Australia and study nursing. I said, but I don't want to be a nurse. He said, well, you have two choices. You either go and study in Australia or you go back to Nan.
I didn't need convincing. I sat for the exam. And I won again, um, the scholarship.
(Music)
STYNES (Voiceover): Duang with her customary excellence nailed the exam and got to continue fulfilling one of her ambitions - to see the world beyond Nan. She packed her bag and headed - this time to Australia, to study in Adelaide. Completely alone.
TENGTRIRAT: The first year, uh, first term, I didn't do well on my exams. And immigration even said, if you don't get past a B average, you would need to leave.
STYNES (Voiceover): Duang's study in Australia was during the time of the White Australia Policy, which discouraged non-white migrants. So when Duang didn't do well in her exams, Immigration were quick to point out that her stay was conditional.
The White Australia Policy reflected racist attitudes in this country, and there was overt discrimination towards migrants like Duang.
TENGTRIRAT: People were asking my host family how they could take a bath in the same bathtub that I was in.
Yeah, or I would step into a lift and people in the lift would leave, would step out.
STYNES: Wow.
TENGTRIRAT: Yeah. Luckily, it's not like that anymore.
STYNES: How did that make you feel?
TENGTRIRAT: It didn't dawn on me, or didn't upset me. But when I heard people say, how can you take a bath in the same bathtub as she did? I asked my mom, did they think I was dirty?
And my mom said, well, I think they know that you're not dirty, but your skin's not white.
And I said, well, it's not my problem that I can't do anything about my skin.
STYNES: That’s wild.
TENGTRIRAT: Yeah, but, yeah. But at school, I didn't feel any different. I was the only Asian in the nursing school, you know, in the whole hospital.
STYNES: But you didn't feel any different from the others?
TENGTRIRAT: I didn’t feel any different. Yeah. And I got really good grades. In fact I graduated top of the class. So, I didn't feel like, if I was different, that I was any inferior to anybody.
STYNES (Voiceover): This, by the way, is exactly the same way my Mum talks about the racism she experienced as a young Japanese woman in country Victoria. It’s a downplaying that’s not so much an unwillingness to see it or acknowledge it. I think it’s that her exuberance and delight at just being alive kind of subdues every other bad thing so that the bad things barely register.
Racist attitudes didn't stop Duang from creating a strong bond with her host family, and making lifelong friends among her classmates
And then there was Rob…
(Music)
TENGTRIRAT: Because I was a Rotary International student, I had to go to formal dances, you know, balls. And I didn't have a partner, so my sponsor knew uh, Rob. and introduced me to Rob, so he could take me to these dances. And so, there were so many that we had to go to, and so we started seeing each other more and more often.
And friendship led to love, and love led to heartbreak, because Rob was already engaged to be married. And when his fiancé came back, they got married, and I left to go back to, um, Thailand.
STYNES (Voiceover): After four years Duang had completed her studies.
Within two weeks of graduation, immigration sent Duang a letter telling her she had to return to Thailand.
With a new degree and a healing heart, she settled in Chiang Mai, a city in the north of Thailand.
TENGTRIRAT: I didn't go back to Nan, I went back to Chiang Mai. And I took up a job teaching English to nursing students. I was not in love with nursing. And I knew that it's not a profession that I would be happy in. But I was happy teaching.During that time, I was hired to be a personal interpreter to a professor that came from America to help set up the first liberal arts college in Thailand.
STYNES (Voiceover): Duang helped this professor navigate Chiang Mai, translating for him and showing him around the city. She was respectful and did not ask him what his position was in America, nor for details about his life.
But at the very end of his time in Thailand, in classic Duang fashion - she saw an opportunity.
TENGTRIRAT: I was taking him to the airport. And I said to him, Dr. Maxon, when you get back to America, do you think you could find me a college where I can go study? And he said, Oh, what do you want to study? I said, I think I want to study psychology, or something that's going to make me wise so that I can spend some time in America growing up, and I will come back to Thailand when I'm wise and people would listen to me. Because in my early twenties, nobody thought that I knew anything.
Because age came before wisdom. So, he said, well, I'll take that on board and I'll think about it.
(Music)
Two weeks after he left, I got a package in the mail from, um, Hastings College, Nebraska, offering me a full scholarship to go to college for two years. And it was signed Dr Theron Maxson, president, Hastings College - who was the person that I was shadowing for two weeks.
STYNES: Wow.
TENGTRIRAT: It was like I was at the right place with the right person.
STYNES: So of course you were accepted.
TENGTRIRAT: Of course I accepted. So I went off to Nebraska. And I stay in Hastings, Nebraska for two years.
Then I met my American husband. And he was a medical student at Stanford. So we went off to Stanford.
And then when he finished. We went to Seattle for him to do an internship. And Seattle became my home for the following 35 years.
STYNES: Wow. Okay. 35 years.
TENGTRIRAT: 35 years in Seattle.
STYNES (Voiceover): There's a bit of pattern here, isn't there? Duang is the most ‘can do’, can do person I’ve ever met!
And I think there’s a unique bravery in people willing to move to unknown places so far from home.
For my mother it was moving from central Tokyo to a tiny country town in Australia, and for Duang, it was kind of a reverse - it was from a tiny country town in Thailand, to Seattle in America's north west.
Duang and her husband had two daughters. She eventually took on a job as the coordinator of the English as a Second Language courses at the local community college.
A lot of the students she was working with were migrants and refugees from Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. Because she could relate to them, their problems weren’t theoretical to her. They were real.
TENGTRIRAT: One of the capacities that I worked at as a coordinator of the refugee project was to find work for my students and the older they were, especially the Hmong, the Hieu tribe people, the Hmong, they didn't want to do anything academic.
And many of my students were illiterate so they were getting very depressed because they were watching their children learn English and learn the American culture really fast, where, why they couldn't do it. And so, when they were so important in Laos, when they came to America, they became nobody, you know. So students were very depressed and some, you know, attempted suicides. So I thought that these people were so good at, um, growing things, at being farmers. Three of my colleagues and myself wrote proposals for the government, for the local government, to give us a grant to lease land for students to go and farm.
So I think the city of Seattle gave us $500,000 as a grant to go lease a large piece of land for 10 families of the Hmong families to go and farm.
STYNES (Voiceover): The Hmong people are an indigenous group found throughout East Asia and Southeast Asia.
And Duang was right, they were excellent at growing vegetables! Duang and the community of farmers soon had a lot of produce to deal with.
TENGTRIRAT: I thought, my god, what am I going to do with all this produce?
STYNES (Voiceover): So Duang set up a Community Supported Agriculture subscription project - where people would pay at the start of each month and each week they would have a bag of vegetables delivered to them.
But this was the 80s and a lot of the vegetables being grown weren't commonly known to Americans.
TENGTRIRAT: So then I had to write recipes of how to use these vegetables and put them in the boxes. And this just took off. We were able to return the $500,000 within five years. And, uh, students became self-sustaining, and it is still going today. Yeah, it's still, it's huge.
STYNES: It's still going today.
TENGTRIRAT: It’s still going today, still.
STYNES: You know what I like about that so much, is the parents who felt really useless and they were being outgrown by their children and they had no skills -
TENGTRIRAT: Yes.
STYNES: - and then suddenly their skills were used and useful and they had a purpose
TENGTRIRAT: Yes yes.
STYNES: And their skills from their old land they could apply in this new environment and be really useful and appreciated.
That must have been so life changing for those people.
TENGTRIRAT: It was so great to see the smiles back on, and having been a vegetable farmer myself in my young age, it was just kind of like, I'm just continuing to do what I was doing before. And I could get my dirty with all these people, yeah.
STYNES: And you're bringing home more than just a chicken leg or a block of tofu for the family.
TENGTRIRAT: Yes.
STYNES (Voiceover): Duang and her husband's relationship ended after three decades of time together.
But there's another love story for Duang, a later in life romance - remember Rob?
TENGTRIRAT: I hadn't seen nor heard of Rob - my Australian dance partner from the 60s - for like 30 years. Didn't know if he was alive, where he was living, nothing.
And we just met again because I had come back to Australia to visit my host family. And Rob was working in South Africa at the time. And he flew back.
STYNES (Voiceover): After all of those years the spark between them was still alive.
This time, both Rob and Duang were single, and ready to explore a relationship.
TENGTRIRAT: So, the fire was still there, and we got to know each other again, this time as full grown adults, maturing, in fact, ripening. And so for many, many years, Rob and I commuted from wherever he was working. Most of the time was in South Africa or in Melbourne, and I in Seattle. And we met at several places, spending a lot of money on airfares and long phone calls. That we decided we should just, we should just go live somewhere together. And it just worked out that Rob had a good job in, uh, Melbourne. So it made sense for me to come here. So I moved to Melbourne at the age of 60 in 2008.
STYNES: Wow. At the age of 60.
TENGTRIRAT: Yes.
STYNES: You finally got together again. That's incredible. Was that a surprise to you that, that your relationship was thriving and that love was there for you.
TENGTRIRAT: Yeah it was. It was, it was a total surprise. If you had told me that ten years before I would say you crazy. Never, it couldn’t happen. And I thought, you know, we know each other as teenagers. It was. And, uh, we went our separate ways, we would become different people, and no way would this happen.
(Music)
STYNES (Voiceover): Of course it wasn't easy for Duang to move back to Australia. She had built a life in Seattle and her daughters, who were now adults, stayed on, building lives and starting families of their own.
TENGTRIRAT: They were the people, the two people who were the saddest to see me go.
And they were also the cause of my sadness to leave. The way they explained it to people was that, Mom left.
STYNES: Mm
TENGTRIRAT: And so, that was really, uh, Heartbreaking, and I also left grandchildren back in Seattle and coming to Australia. So I must confess that the first two years of being back in Australia were the hardest. I actually didn't know if I could make it work, because -
STYNES: - you left so much behind.
TENGTRIRAT: And I knew no one except for Rob. Not knowing anyone and not knowing what to do was really hard.
STYNES: So how did you fix that Duang?
TENGTRIRAT: Ooh. I stumble upon it at Yumi and it was a really good stumbling block. I decided that I was going to volunteer with a group of, disabled people who were trying to do gardening, trying to grow vegetables. And I decided to volunteer and go and help them one day a week.
And during that time I noticed that these people were staying in assisted living situations. And they came to work, to the garden, with junk food that they bought along the way. So I said that on Wednesdays when I, when I go to volunteer, please don't bring anything I'm gonna cook and I'm going to take food to share.
So I started cooking different things, people could request what they wanted to eat, and then I would rotate, one person one week, the next person the next week. And everybody would eat my food. Well, the organization that sponsored this work noticed that I was doing that.
For after about six months, they asked me if I would cater for a teacher's meeting. And I said sure. So I started cooking for the meeting. It started off being, you know, cooking for 15 people. Then it was 30 people. It was 45 people. And then one day, I got a call from council saying, ‘Do you have a food handlers permit?’ I said, what is it?
They said, well, in order to serve the public you have to register your kitchen and you have to have a food handlers permit. So I said, okay, I'll do that. So I went and study and got the food handlers permit and got all the necessary paperwork, got my kitchen certified.
And I started a catering business and my catering business was thriving. And it became viable for me. And I had a purpose and I had my own network in the food business and also in the garden.
STYNES (Voiceover): Finding a purpose is threaded through Duang's entire lifeline. Wherever she goes, she seems to have this innate ability to sniff out a need, and find a meaningful way to give back.
And look as you get older, having a purpose can become vital to continuing to feel valued and useful - just like the older refugees in Seattle, who were so happy when they found a way to use their farming skills.
(Music)
In 2018, Duang and Rob moved to Castlemaine. Straight away, it felt like... the right place to be.
TENGTRIRAT: Castlemaine is an extremely inclusive place. Musicians, painters, ceramicists - people are with such open mind and open heart. And by that time I was 70 years old and this has been the best community I have ever had in all the places that I've lived.
STYNES: Tell me more about that. Why?
TENGTRIRAT: It was like Castlemaine was ready to just welcome me with open arms. I came here, I didn't know what I was going to do either. But then they were starting a weekly farmer's market. So a market where all producers have to use produce from local area. If you grow it, you have to grow it here. Or if you cook it, you have to use the produce that is grown here. And that was just like I just opened the door to the most embracing community I've ever had.
STYNES (Voiceover): Duang had landed smack bang in the venn diagram of all the things she loved - fresh local produce, cooking up a storm and community gatherings where food was centred but connection was the recipe.
Each week she would make up to 150 delicious meals in her home kitchen that she'd sell at markets. It was energising… but it was also a big job. Had Duang forgotten her other ambition - was not to work from morning to night?
TENGTRIRAT: And then when I got to be 75, I decided I was too old to do market anymore. Not so much for cooking, but for transporting food.
STYNES (Voiceover): Duang was missed, and was soon asked to cook for a community lunch every Tuesday.
TENGTRIRAT: As soon as I stopped doing the market, the community house asked if I would cook for the community lunch, which is on Tuesdays every week. And I said, oh, yes. And as soon as I started, it's kind of like it's a job that I have trained myself all my life for.
STYNES (Voiceover): Every week the local neighborhood centre offers lunch to anyone who’s interested - no matter what their situation in life is.
TENGTRIRAT: On Tuesday, at least 10 volunteers, sometimes as many as 15, come and help cook. And we cook in the kitchen from 9 o'clock. And at 12:30, about 100 people come to eat what we make. And it's all vegetarian. Now it's expanded to about 150. And we make one main and about three salads and then dessert. So it's a two course meal.
It's nutritious. It's really good produce. Mostly organic produce. And the volunteers and myself just absolutely love being there and love what we do. And when the people come and line up to get the food, there was just so much joy on everybody's face. And the chatter start, in the queue, and then when they sit down to talk.
(Music)
I just get so full of contentment, from the minute I pick up the vegetable until I finish washing up the last dish. It was just so good. There is no better job for me.
STYNES: Oh, that's so wonderful. And tell me who are the people that you're feeding? Who's there making the laughter and the chatter?
(Music)
TENGTRIRAT: when I started, I noticed that a lot of the people who came, some were homeless, some were single moms doing it tough. Some were elderly people who didn't have anybody to eat lunch with.
(Sound of people cooking, eating and laughing)
Now, a year later, I have doctors, chemists, accountants, nurses. And some people who help me in the kitchen are musicians you know. So there's a lot of song and a lot of singing in the kitchen. We do some dances and, uh, when we stir the pot, we stir it to music. It's a lot of fun. Yeah, I love it.
STYNES: That sounds so good.
What do you think is the secret ingredient to a good community?
TENGTRIRAT: Food. I think it's food. I think when you get people together and they eat together, you put them at the same plateau. When you sit together and sit at the same table, everybody is the same. The person next to you is the same as you. It's a leveller.
STYNES: Why is having a community important, especially as you're getting older?
TENGTRIRAT: You know, Yumi, I wouldn't have been able to answer that question because I don't think I've had as much of a community as I have had in the last six years. Before that, I thought of myself very much as an, as an introvert. I keep very much to myself. But now I, I can't imagine not having a community because, in my ripening age, I feel relevant. I feel like I'm not outcast as a senior, you know, that what I say matters. What I do matters and the community look at me as an auntie and I definitely feel seen. I feel like I have a sense of belonging.
STYNES (Voiceover): Duang found a sense of belonging in a community far from her place of birth. But the feeling of being valued as an elder is one she's been able to carry with her beyond Castlemaine.
After inheriting her family home in Nan, she decided to take a group of Australian and American friends there, to show them the village and to teach them how to cook Thai food.
TENGTRIRAT: The Nan people wanted to know who this person Duang was because they grew up without knowing me because I live abroad. So I had to reintroduce myself. But I had come back to Nan to pay back what Nan had given me in my early years.
So, I didn't go back with an intention to take, but I went with an intention to give to Nan what it gave me. And to be seen in Nan, very much as a senior, because not many people live to be in their 70s, and because of Thai culture, the older you get, the more respected you are. So, in Nan, I'm definitely very, it's almost embarrassing, I go to the market and I don't get to carry anything home because there's always a child that somebody tell to go carry all my stuff home.
I become like a queen in Nan. I'm very much seen and appreciated.
STYNES (Voiceover): Duang, the queen of Nan. What a legend.
The most inspiring thing about Duang’s story from my perspective is that - all this is ahead for me!
Growth, relevance, belonging and the utter gift that is being able to give back - can be written into a life post-60 years old.
I’m only a few guests into this series, but already I’m starting to feel more excited about what’s ahead of me. If I can live in any way like Duang, I think I’ll be doing pretty great!
This has been SEEN, hosted by me, Yumi Stynes, and produced by Audiocraft in collaboration with SBS.
From Audiocraft, Season 3 of SEEN was produced by Laura Brierley Newton and Olivia O'Flynn.
Sound design and mix is done by Ravi Gupta and Executive Producer is Lorna Clarkson and Kate Montague.
The SBS team are Joel Supple and Max Gosford with special thanks to Caroline Gates.
Our podcast artwork is created by Evi-O Studios.
And music is by Yeo.
SEEN’s original concept was by Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn.
