Eliza Munro
If someone is taken from their community and they pass in a hospital, there's little financial support to get them home once they've passed. Some of the other cases I've heard where loved ones are actually in a morgue for up to eight months because they just can't get back to community. The belief
is that if someone is not buried on country, then their spirit will remain stuck and not be at home.
Nadine J. Cohen
Welcome to Grave Matters, a lively look at death.
Anthony Levin
All of us at Grave Matters would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land we are recording from. We pay our respects to the Cammaraygal people and their elders, past and present. We also acknowledge the traditional owners from all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander lands and other
first nations territories from which you are listening.
Nadine J. Cohen
A warning. This episode contains references to the deceased dying and sorry business. Please take care
Anthony Levin
Nadine J. Cohen. Hello.
Nadine J. Cohen
Anthony Levin. Salom
Anthony Levin
That sounds vaguely familiar.
Nadine J. Cohen
It's the stans It's close to Arabic. It's close to Hebrew.
Anthony Levin
I love the stans
Nadine J. Cohen
Yeah, me too. Love a stan
Anthony Levin
Including Eminem. You gotta have him in there.
Nadine J. Cohen
Not gonna say I love him. So, Lev, what are we talking about today?
Anthony Levin
Well, you know I like to go big or go home. Right?
Nadine J. Cohen
You mostly like to go big.
Anthony Levin
Okay, I'll take it. I want to get philosophical for a moment. Okay
Anthony Levin
Philosophical. Sophical. You can sing along with me if you.
Anthony Levin
You're good. Okay. Among your many talents people may not know, you are an aficionado of ancient Greek philosophy. Correct?
Nadine J. Cohen
Yeah, sure, we can go with that. Socrates.
Anthony Levin
Exactly. Anaxagoras. Just say some Greek names with me.
Nadine J. Cohen
I don't even like that. Plato, I was gonna say, but Galileo.
Anthony Levin
Aristotle. I didn't think Galileo is great.
Nadine J. Cohen
No, I don't think so either. I think he was Italian
Anthony Levin
I mean, you know, the same region, but you might know, you did refer to Socrates, and you might know that right before he kicked the bucket. Uncle Socrates issued a dying wish. Shall I remind you?
Nadine J. Cohen
Yeah, I definitely don't know this.
Anthony Levin
Okay. He asked one of his followers, Crito, to sacrifice a rooster to ask Lepios, the God of medicine and healing, why he did that is for another podcast.
Anthony Levin
But this is the deity that gives us the modern symbol of medicine. The staff with the snake coiled around it, because he carried it around with him, happens to be the symbol of the World Health Organisation. Some call him the God with the rod. Not me. Other, people.
Nadine J. Cohen
I thought that's what some People called you.
But, speaking of modern medicine, you are quite familiar with its deficiencies and you have had several close family members go through palliative care.
Nadine J. Cohen
Yes, I have indeed.
Anthony Levin
Did any of your relatives make any dying requests, like Socrates, in their final weeks or days?
Nadine J. Cohen
Not in their final weeks or days. My mother was obsessed with me finishing uni. That was like, to her it meant. Cause I had had to stop going to uni several times when my father was sick and then my father died and then she was sick and then she died. And to her, I think it symbolised, like, I be
okay. So she like, harped on this and for years friends of hers would call me, like, are you feel. Are you finishing uni? So she didn't have any, like, requests that were like, for the immediate time, but that was like a thing, that was a theme.
Anthony Levin
And, not necessarily for her either.
Nadine J. Cohen
No, but for her peace of mind. Yeah.
Anthony Levin
Yeah, that makes sense. I'm glad you finished uni.
Nadine J. Cohen
I'm glad I did too. Go to uni, people. No, don't. It's so much debt. But what about you?
Anthony Levin
Well, I, funnily enough do remember that my mum did make a dying request and you helped me with her dying wish. Do you remember what it was?
Anthony Levin
Why don't you tell us?
Nadine J. Cohen
I'm not sure I've ever told you the full story about it, though.
Anthony Levin
Well. Please.
Nadine J. Cohen
Your mother wanted to try a truffle. She had never tried a truffle. And you asked me if I could procure a truffle.
Anthony Levin
You are known for your procurement of. rare food.
Nadine J. Cohen
For my fine food delivery service. The problem was it was like Christmas Eve or like the day before New Year's. Like, it was one of those two things and not truffle season. So like, it was a mission. And I, like, I went to a bunch of places that I thought truffles might be at and they were not
there. And. And she wanted a fresh one. Like, I didn't want to just get her like a truffle infused something. And I finally, I rang this like, fine food gourmet, foreign importer of fine foods person, and I was like, I need a truffle there's a dying woman. Like. Can you get me a truffle? And he was
like, oh, we've packed all of them, but, like for catering for, like, it was New Year's and Christmas. But he's like, if you can come here in the next 20 minutes, I can get you. You can have one. I can take One out of the catering order.
Nadine J. Cohen
And like, like, zoomed there. It wasn't, like, that far from my house. I got in the car and I just ran. And, he gave me. It was really lovely. He gave me. He's like, what are you gonna. What is she gonna have it with? You can just eat a truffle. And I was like, I don't know. And he's like. He gave
me, like, a beautiful bag of, like, fresh Italian pasta and, like, oil, like, beautiful Spanish or Italian oil, like, for free. It didn't make me pay for the truffle either. He was just like, you know, it's Christmas or it's new year's or whatever it is. And then so I went home and I believe I made
Anthony Levin
it rings a bell.
Nadine J. Cohen
You. The truffle. I can't remember exactly. But then she lost her appetite and she didn't try it.
Anthony Levin
Oh, my gosh, Mom. What a diva.
Nadine J. Cohen
What a diva. But I never wanted to tell you, like, this is the, like, the struggle I had getting this.
Anthony Levin
That is so kind. I actually did not know the backstory, and it's that time is such a blur that I just. You probably turned up with the thing and I was like, oh, my God, thank you. And I was just a total wreck.
Nadine J. Cohen
Yeah, we just did it. Like, I did a car drive by the hospice and. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'd made pasta. And I'm pretty sure you ate the pasta.
Anthony Levin
Probably I did.
Nadine J. Cohen
but, yes. So, yes, that was your mother's dying wish.
Anthony Levin
Well, that is a great little anecdote. And thank you for finally telling me.
In today's episode, we look at palliative care and death literacy from an Indigenous perspective. We explore sorry business and the importance of dying on country. We ask, what are the barriers to accessing end of life care for Aboriginal and, Torres Strait Islander people? How can we ensure that
care is culturally safe? And what are the taboos around death in first nations communities? Our, guest today is Sorry business consultant Eliza Munro. Eliza is a proud mother of five and a spiritual woman from the Gomilaroi nation who grew up on Wannerua Country. She's the managing director of a
consultancy named Ngiyani Wandabaa and has over 20 years experience in Indigenous health, including nearly a decade in palliative care education. She's passionate about enhancing culturally safe and responsive end of life care for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. And she's also a 2024
Churchill fellow. Eliza Munro, welcome to Grave Matters.
Eliza Munro
Thanks, Anthony, for. Yeah, for Yarning with me today.
Anthony Levin
It is our absolute pleasure.
Eliza Munro
So I just want a disclaimer that I do have imposter syndrome. I get quite nervous. so sometimes my language, you know, is not spot on. But, I'll share the best that I can. But the biggest one for me is, I'm not an expert in any way, shape or form in anything. I've got a curious mind, so I'm never
going to be an expert in one area and even though we're talking about first nation palliative care, death and dying today in sorry business, I'm not an expert, in that sense either. And I don't represent all voices, you know, Aboriginal and Torres Strait is perspectives or voices. I can only speak
from my perspective, you know, what I believe in and my journey and what I've learned to date. So any views shared today is mostly mine, but I, speak generally.
Anthony Levin
Yeah, we appreciate that and I think it's really important that people understand that you're just sharing your perspective.
So Eliza, tell us a bit about yourself. Where are you from?
Eliza Munro
Okay, so I'm a Gamilaroi woman. So Gamilaroi for those that are not familiar outside of New South Wales is northwest New South Wales, second biggest country following Raratri. I grew up in Maitland though, so I'm Wiradjuri country. So Maitland's home to me, all the family, throughout, you know, all
over the place. But yeah, Gamilaroi woman, but Wonnarua country is home, spiritual woman, and mum of five. So one in spirit and all here. So, yeah.
Anthony Levin
And you describe yourself as a sorry, business consultant, which is a term I must admit I hadn't heard before I met you.
So before we get to what you do, can you start by telling our, listeners what is sorry, business?
Eliza Munro
Sorry, business is a terminology that we use in our communities around practises and protocols for death and dying. So incorporating, you know, the lead up to someone's passing, it can incorporate that part, but it can also the actual time of passing and then the funeral practises after and the
morning practises as well. So all of that can encompass sorry, business. So death and dying for Aboriginal people.
Anthony Levin
And what does a sorry business consultant do exactly?
Eliza Munro
The term itself, Anthony, if I can give a little bit of a background. So it's actually a made up title that I've made myself. When I came into this space. I've been doing palliative care education for quite a while. Come, COVID, there was some challenges There and I thought, what can I do now?
Following COVID, and I was interested in Death Doula and there was a lady, actually, Zenith Zago
Eliza Munro
Yeah. I call her Queen of Death. She's a beautiful soul.
Nadine J. Cohen
Eliza is referring to a legend in the death sector named Zenith Virago, a death walker, celebrant and educator who has pioneered end of life and after death care in Australia. You may recall that we spoke about her in conversation with death tech researcher Dr. Hannah Gould in season one.
Eliza Munro
So I was looking at her training. I've been meaning to do it for quite a while and I thought, oh, that's so interesting, being called a death walker. And I thought, oh, that's not really appropriate for me though, for my community. So I thought, how can I, reframe that? In a sense, I thought, sorry,
business consultant. Because at the time, and still currently, now, I'm still, I'm doing more consultancy as opposed to death door work. So consulting for, you know, palliative care projects and organisations and whatnot. So. And when I say sorry business consultant, it's not palliative care
consultancy, it's a bit of everything. It's all, you know, deaf literacy, it's funeral poverty, advanced care, yarning. It's anything to do with, sorry, business, regardless of how one gets there, whether it's a serious illness or not. So a bit of everything.
Nadine J. Cohen
And Eliza, when did you realise you wanted to work in this space?
Eliza Munro
I think as a spiritual person, I've always been weird, even during childhood. So it's the spirituality aspect that draws me to death and dying. I've been always curious, always had a healthy obsession with death and dying for a long time and then, fueled by personal experiences. But it wasn't until
I fell into an opportunity to do palliative care project work first, you know, indigenous palliative care, eight years ago. And it just happened to come about. I don't like to say it actually come about, I think, you know, I say I work for spirit, so I was more where I was meant to be and just
haven't looked back yet. And it was interesting for me coming into the palliative care space as an Aboriginal health worker, because I was just amazed why had we not learned about palliative care sooner? Because at that stage, and still a lot of our communities now think that palliative care is
cancer and elders only. So I fell into it. But I don't like to say fell into. I was guided to the position and, I'm not going Anywhere in this space.
Nadine J. Cohen
I think we find that once you get into this world, from everyone that we've talked to in however you come into this space, and whatever nation this space you occupy. There's no out, because you just, it's a calling and it is. You feel like it's where you're meant to be.
Eliza Munro
Definitely. And I think, for me, if I can add a little bit more, it's. It's around that grief and healing for our communities as well. So when, depending on how someone passes, whether it's palliative or otherwise, it can affect that grieving and healing journey for our communities, and it's
something that if we can make those experiences a little bit softer, even though people are carrying a heavy heart anyway, then at least it can help that healing and grieving. We have enough trauma in our communities, let alone adding other things on as opposed to complicated grief.
Anthony Levin
I know that you're very passionate about death literacy and you've said that the absence of death knowledge can really intensify sorry business. So what does deaf literacy actually mean to you? What does it look like?
Eliza Munro
education. Anthony and Nadine. For me, education is empowering in whatever form it is. And I think if we're talking about death systems in general, the imagination can run wild. Even just knowing the process of where your loved one is after they've passed away, and just not knowing the processes of
organising funerals or where to access support. All of it is combined in one. So it's a bit of everything. And I find that for our communities, when the message is coming from within, because we have that lived experience, we can relate to what we're trying to share, then the message is more
powerful. You would not find an Aboriginal or Torres Strait person that hasn't been affected by, multiple sorry businesses. But then also the ongoing effects around whether it's paying for a funeral or organising, you would not find, you know, someone that hasn't got a story.
Anthony Levin
Yeah, I know. From my work with Aboriginal communities and clients over the years, it seems to me that, sorry, business is sadly, just such a common feature, of daily life, that it's not something that happens maybe a couple of times a year. It's something that, because of both the connectedness of
communities across different regions and countries, and also just the amount of trauma that's going on in community, that it's a feature that people are constantly living with. Is that a sort of accurate way to characterise it?
Eliza Munro
Yeah, definitely. Anthony. Ongoing, sorry business. In a lot of communities, if we Think about the grieving cycle, you know, in terms of models and whatnot. You know, you've got communities that get to one place and then, you know, there's more sorry business. So constantly in those cycles of
grieving, but not even getting to a point where everything's being processed and we're not practising sorry business. Some communities, I should say not all, are not practising traditional sorry business as we used to, where the mourning periods, you were, you had to stop, you had to do the
processing and the ritual and the ceremony. Where today, depending on where you live, it's sorry business. Leave bereavement leave is what, three days? And you're expected to sort of, you know, get back to work, sort of move on, get. Get going again and do your grieving in your own time. It's a lot
different than what we used to do. And when I say that, I'm speaking generally, I'm not talking for all communities.
Nadine J. Cohen
Are there taboos around talking about sorry business and death and dying in Aboriginal communities?
Eliza Munro
Yeah, no, definitely. That makes it a little bit more challenging when we're yarning death and dying and planning ahead or whatever that is, particularly for Palladi, Vera, vet kiyani and sharing our wishes. there's a common belief that if we speak of death, that we're manifesting and death will
come sooner. And from my understanding as well, we used to celebrate death. It was a celebration. We, you know, we're born, we live and we go home. That was a life, you know, the death, life, death cycle. It wasn't until the introduction of Christianity that the concept of heaven and hell came into,
and I believe that's where the fear has come in, in saying that we do have a lot of religious communities or individuals within our community as well, with different beliefs, but there is a common belief that talking about death and dying is manifesting. It's coming closer. And if we think about it
and, there's no disrespect to my cultural beliefs, but we're all edging closer. Death is coming closer for all of us.
Anthony Levin
But when you say that it was something that was once celebrated, can you elaborate on that?
Eliza Munro
Yes, and I'll always say from my understanding, because it's only from what I have learned, so far, from my understanding, yeah, we're born, we come here to learn and then we go home. They say that, in a spiritual sense, the human experience is the hardest university. When we come here to learn
different life lessons, for this lifetime but culturally, yes, it was something that we celebrated. We were returning to dreaming, we were returning to ancestors, and it was a celebration because you were going home in a sense.
Nadine J. Cohen
You mentioned this briefly in an earlier question. Can you explain what is advanced care yarning?
Eliza Munro
Advanced care yarning is just another terminology for advanced care planning. So everything we, you know, as, you know, yarning, in our communities, that's all about sharing verbally, you know, connection. So yarning is another. A player on the advanced care planning, but we like to use advanced
care yarning. So it's just, it's the same. The sharing wishes, connecting in that sense.
Nadine J. Cohen
And how are communities navigating advanced care yarning when there are like those cultural barriers to talking about death and dying? There seems to be a tension there.
Eliza Munro
Yeah. Once again, it's not all communities, that's not all individuals. That's all. It's about individual beliefs as well. So there are a lot of, There's a lot happening across our communities across Australia where there are those yarning circles happening, and people are starting to yarn about,
you know, they're sharing their wishes in that sense. And just thinking about some of these future planning is the most important thing. You'll find. You won't get a lot of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people that actually will complete the advanced care directives or other paperworks
legally, but having the yarn, is the important thing and just, you know, sharing your wishes or future plans with a couple of people within community. So it is happening, but the legal paperwork is just an added bonus.
Anthony Levin
I wonder if the absence of paperwork ever presents any challenges when a person does pass and whether in fact the legal system needs to kind of accommodate the different ways in which that yarning happens.
Eliza Munro
Yeah, no, definitely. I think there's probably instances where, you know, we think about advance care yarning and substitute decision makers. Sometimes in our communities we can have cultural spokespersons, which is different to the legal spokesperson, but that's not recognised within Australian
law. So there's some work to be done. There's been a couple of cases previously around different end of life law, but, yeah, it does make it a little bit challenging when the systems aren't built for us, they're not built for Aboriginal and Torres Strait peoples, and everything. So black and white,
if I can say, in a sense it's only, yeah, some things, there's room for movement, but not, not a lot.
Anthony Levin
and when you go into community to set up a yarning circle or deliver a workshop about dying, what are you Hoping to achieve.
Eliza Munro
Most of the workshops currently around palliative care. The most benefit for those workshops is actually just dispelling the myths of what palliative care is, because there's still a lot of that misunderstanding of what it is, so that there's barriers to access. Palliative care, the word itself can
be fearful for anyone. But then when we think of palliative care for Aboriginal and Torres Strait peoples, we just think end of life. we think that that person, they're passing immediately, basically. But we know that that's not the case. So it's just yarning about those sort of different myths So
that they can go back into community. And when we're talking in a professional sense, all our health workers and, professionals that are working go into community and share the knowledge with their families. So it all beneficial in that sense.
Anthony Levin
I've heard one of your colleagues in the palliative sector, Kelly Clark, say that the word palliative is really not used in some communities, and yet it's something that first nations people have been doing for thousands of years in your own way. So if they're not relating to that word and they're
not using it, and in fact there is some fear or mistrust around what it means, how are people talking about it in a way that's comfortable, and where does that conversation tend to lead?
Eliza Munro
Yeah, so different terminologies for different communities. So it's not the one terminology that fits all communities. So if you. Some people may say returning to dreaming, they're finishing up. I like to use returning to spirit journey, or that person is returning to spirit, because for me, it
speaks to the spirituality of it. But also that's ultimately what it is.
Nadine J. Cohen
I mean, to be fair, I think palliative care, the word is scary for anyone, really, unless you've been through that with someone else. I don't think it's a term that many people know, but once they do know, it's terrifying. And it is. It's a terrifying thing. It's very reasonable to be scared of the
word and scared of what it means.
Eliza Munro
and definitely something that we have been doing for thousands of years. And I often wonder, I'm trying to find out who had that role in our communities, traditionally. So what was that name? Was it our healers that done that work and supported those that were passing? We had a role for everything
else. We had our lawmen, you know, our medicine men in our healers. So who was that person? So I'm still trying to find that out and I'm often asking when I. When I have an opportunity, because there would have been somebody that done that traditionally within our communities. Whether it was a
collective of peoples or whether it was one. Even with the birthing, if I can go to the other end of life, we had our, Aboriginal and Torres Strait and midwives that done all that birthing, whether it was under the trees or in the caves. So everyone had a role. So there would have had to been
someone that played that role within our communities.
Anthony Levin
I'm really interested to know whether those roles might have been separated or whether a person in community might have performed both those roles. Both the, birth and death midwifery.
Eliza Munro
Yeah, Generally it was women's business to do the birthing. So I wonder. Yeah. If that was a separation of gender roles, as it probably was very highly likely. But. Yeah, I wonder too. Anthony, I'll have to let you know when I. Yeah. When I find out.
Anthony Levin
I don't know if you can answer this, but because you've been talking about returning to spirit and returning to dreaming, I wonder if you can explain to our listeners what does that mean for you?
Eliza Munro
For me, personally, I see it as that I fulfilled my soul contract for this lifetime and that I am returning back to spirit to recover, rejoice, debrief in all those things that we do, and then prepare to come back for my next lifetime. So that's what it means for me, for a spiritual sense that it's,
yeah, the end of this lifetime and I've fulfilled all my soul contracts and obligations.
Anthony Levin
And I've noticed there's a beautiful proverb at the end of your email signature which touches on the theme that you just mentioned. It says, we're just visitors to this time, this place, we're just passing through. Our purpose here is to observe, to learn, to grow and to love, and then we return
home. How might a belief in returning to spirit or returning to dreaming affect a person's attitude towards their own death or the dying process?
Eliza Munro
It's a very individual thing. And when we're talking about beliefs, whether spiritual or religious, and in the context of passing and returning to dreaming or returning to spirit or finishing up. For me personally, I do like to share a lot of storeys and reflect it back to myself. For me, it would
give me comfort, but for others it could, depending on their beliefs. In a religious sense, it may give them comfort or it may give them fear. It's all in the individual's life experiences and what they believe in. We can't say what it is and isn't for anybody else.
if I can share, another beautiful terminology I think is wallobani. So wallobani is, if I'm saying corrective dharug word. dharug In New South Wales, I think it's the south coast, and it means Safe journey home. We had a Aboriginal and Torres Strait and Palliative Care conference recently in
Brisbane and it was titled Wallabani and Safe Journey Home. You know, how beautiful is that?
Anthony Levin
So we, we've talked a little bit about this already and obviously there is a long history of mistrust among Aboriginal communities towards government. To what extent do you think that plays a role in the willingness of people to access end of life care from mainstream services?
Eliza Munro
Just generally, if you think of the hospital systems, segregation was a real thing in Australia. We talk about truth telling and a lot of people don't know that we had a white Australia policy. And in hospitals we actually had the blackboards, what were known as blackboards, where Aboriginal and
Torres Strait people were, were looked after by, you know, black nurses, Aboriginal trained nurses. And we had our own blankets, we had our own knives and forks and they were stamped with blacks only. So if you think about the history there, you know, it plays a big role. we've got a multicultural
community within Australia and there's still a lot of learnings there as, well, and it's not intentional, but there's a lot of that unconscious bias and cultural stereotyping that's happening in our hospital systems. And then you wonder why people discharged against medical advice.
Anthony Levin
And how do you think that legacy affects access to palliative care?
Eliza Munro
There's still a lot of fear of what that looks like. The system once again is not built for us. If we're thinking is something is so sacred as returning to spirit, you know, palliative care and someone passing. Some of those practises are not practical within a clinical sort of setting with alarms
and, you know, small spaces for limited visitors. If you think of all those sort of elements, they're not appropriate for our sense. We're big communities, we're big moms, you know, big families. And when someone's passing, it's respectful to be a part of that process, even if it's just coming to,
you know, pay respects, say goodbye, sit, yarn, have a laugh. The amount of people coming in, some of the hospital staff, they're aware of this, they hear this in their training, but they're not prepared as much. It's still something where Sometimes you have to advocate for flexibility around what
that looks like in that setting.
Anthony Levin
Yeah, I mean, I can imagine things like visiting hours aren't, really, appropriate as a sort of structure for the way that people in community might want to do things when someone's nearing the end of life.
Eliza Munro
Yes, visiting hours, you know, people are travelling interstate, they could be travelling from anywhere. And if they rock up at 3 o' clock in the morning and not saying that, you know, palliative care. I don't want to say they're not flexible at all, palliative care staff, but they definitely are.
But it's just sometimes if it's multiple peoples it can be, you know, a little bit challenging and you've got other patients within, you know, that are doing their sacred business and their returning to spirit journey as well. So it's just being mindful of others that are around.
Nadine J. Cohen
Eliza's comments about navigating hospice care as an indigenous person pointed to a broader tension in palliative environments. They're often designed to be these quiet, solemn spaces. So how can we reconcile the needs of communities with large families, who want to visit loved ones at the end of
life, but who also need a place to yarn, perform rituals or even celebrate.
Anthony Levin
I'm thinking about, for example, the stark difference between, say, the very staid and sombre Jewish funeral at the Hevre Kadisha, which we're both very accustomed to, and the minyan afterwards in the evening, which is often more raucous and a lot of talking and, after the prayers are done, you
know, it's a very different atmosphere. So even from our own cultural experience, we're sort of familiar with what it's like when you've got a huge amount of people. That was certainly the case when my maternal grandmother passed away last year. Like, there were just masses of people who came.
Nadine J. Cohen
Yeah, I had to stand like, like three houses down.
Anthony Levin
You were outside. Yeah, I know.
Nadine J. Cohen
It was, you know, spilling into the streets. I think our world entirely is. Is made up of small spaces in general that aren't necessarily fit for the type of gatherings that certain cultures want.
Eliza Munro
And need to have and that might outdo our community. Nadine, we don't have to stand three houses down.
Anthony Levin
Yeah. And I guess the point is we can relate to that sense of, you know, sometimes the systems don't fit what you need to mourn, the passing of the person.
Eliza Munro
Yeah, a couple of points in that too. I wanted to say, even the funeral, you know, process itself. Why can't it be a Celebration, you know, yes, we're going to miss our loved one but I think we can come back and remember and celebrate their life and who they were and their journey for this, you
Nadine J. Cohen
And I think that like, what we've discovered throughout this show is that that is more and more something that many communities want and are practising in different ways, whether it's even through living wakes with the person before they pass, you know, before they finish up and more celebratory and
non religious or non enforced systems I think. But I imagine that like for us the burial in the timeline is it pushes against certain regulations in the main system. I'm not sure if you can actually talk to this, but is there tension there as well in terms of where the body goes?
Eliza Munro
So returning to country is important culturally for our people and, and also spiritually as well. The belief is that if someone is not buried on country then their spirit will remain stuck and not be at home. so there's a bit of, there's a belief around that. So a lot of people tend to take their
loved ones home. Cremations are currently on the rise in some of our communities due to the financial cost. It can be really challenging for families when they're taken away from community or country because some people living off country, we've got to remember that people move around, we don't
always stay, you know, where we're from. If someone is taken from their community and they pass in a hospital, there's little financial support to get them home. So some of the way that families are navigating, that is opting for cremation, which is traditionally not something that we do within our
communities as well. But it certainly is on the rise in some communities due to financial costs.
Anthony Levin
Research suggests an average funeral can cost between $4,000 and $15,000. On top of this there can be other expenses like travel, catering and accommodation. Sometimes those costs are compounded by funeral insurance. In fact, in 2017, the Banking Royal Commission found there were systemic rorts in
the funeral industry and indigenous people living in regional and and remote areas were at risk of being sold funeral insurance policies which offered very little value.
We asked ah, Eliza to tell us what supports are in place to ensure that remains can be laid to rest on country.
Eliza Munro
There are some programmes within our government systems that will help people get back home but it varies depending on the jurisdictions and which state or territory. So there are some supports available but there's not too many. The cost is still mostly on the family in a Recent story I'm familiar
with the financial cost of a loved one to be taken from the hospital mortuary to home, has proved quite significant. It's been a couple of weeks since that person has passed and you can imagine when we think about the funeral process and when someone actually has a funeral, it sort of allows the
beginning of that actual mourning period, if we're thinking of it in that sense. And if you've got a halt on that because someone, you know, financially, our communities are looking for that, that money to get someone from A to B or returning to country. The halt on that grieving is significant. And
then the stress of getting your finances together and then the impact of people spiritually thinking, oh, you know, their loved one and where they are, it's. It's enormous. So there's not. There's not too many supports around, but there are some.
Nadine J. Cohen
We, in Jewish culture, we bury like, asap, like sometimes within 24 hours, because the religion believes that the soul can't rest until the body's in the ground. And so we try and hasten that period. It's the same in Islam. And I often see people who wait two, three weeks for a funeral. For whatever
reason, people are coming back from overseas and want to be there or, you know, whatever the Whatever the reason is. And it makes me really angry, anxious for everyone. But I also agree with you completely. Often say to people like that grief is suspended until that's done. Like, you cannot start a
healthy bereavement. I don't want to say cannot, but in general
Anthony Levin
It's harder.
Nadine J. Cohen
It's harder, because you've got this thing to do and it's not finished, it's not closed. You need that closure of either ashes scattering or just cremation or the body being in the ground before everyone can move on.
Eliza Munro
And then it's like the beginning. Yes, we're grieving before, you know, the actual funeral process. But once again, like you said, it's sort of. It's like the formal approval, where you can actually start that, sort of mourning period. Some of the other cases I've heard where loved ones are actually
in a morgue for up to eight months in the hospital mortuaries because they just can't get back to community or where the, you know, hospital social workers are chasing families and sort of trying to help, assist this.
Nadine J. Cohen
having worked in and out of these systems for some time now, what could Western medical models and Western palliative models learn from indigenous models of end of Life care?
Eliza Munro
If we're looking at the palliative care model definition as it is, it incorporates, you know, supporting the family as well and it's a holistic model in a sense, so that very much fits with our ways of being and doing and knowing. anyway, and if I'm thinking, you know, the social emotional wellbeing
will, which was, developed by, you know, Auntie Pat and Clinton Schultz, and I apologise because there was, other people's on it, but those sort of models fit really well with the mainstream, I should say, all the palliative care definitions.
Anthony Levin
The social and emotional wellbeing model of care, often depicted as a wheel, was created by a group of indigenous academics in 2014. It's now widely used in policy and health settings by Aboriginal controlled health organisations, peak bodies and other health agencies.
Eliza Munro
So, within that, I would say incorporating community. When we think of the tradition, like the definition of palliative care, it does incorporate family, but for us it's community. And I think if we look at those compassionate community models which are coming into play now. It's incorporating all
of that. So I think that's probably where, you know, it could change a little bit.
Nadine J. Cohen
Is that something that you've seen change within the time that you've been doing this kind of work? Because I definitely understand that since I kind of first had contact with palliative and death and dying services 20 years ago now, 22 years ago now. It definitely wasn't as holistic and wasn't as
family centred and wasn't as, emotion centred. It was, it was getting there and it wasn't terrible, but it was much more clinical and just about the admin of death and the pain management of death.
Eliza Munro
Yeah, there's definitely been a shift in terms of first nations palliative care, where there's now more funding being put into our space. There's also more Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander health workers that are designated roles of palliative care, which wasn't previously. There was people
around probably 14 years ago, in palliative care roles, but it was rare. But now it's more common and even with the prison systems, could you imagine the journey for that person to be isolated in a sense, and passing within? and then the family not being able to be with. I think there is, there's
room for movement, but it would be a different experience and I'm only imagining it, but I'm just thinking it would definitely be a lot different than, you know, say a hospital or a hospice or passing A home.
Anthony Levin
Yeah, absolutely. And there's very limited beds as well in the prison hospital system, so it's not always possible. The, the aged and frail unit, for example, is pretty small in New South Wales. So it's not always possible to move into a bed to get the kind of care that you need when you need it. So
that's a real challenge in terms of the custodial environment.
Nadine J. Cohen
There's many challenges of working in this space, obviously. How do you maintain your own wellbeing and your own spirit in all of this work?
Eliza Munro
I think once again it just comes back to that spiritual strength and knowing that I. What I'm doing is I work for spirit and I'm honouring my soul contract because I definitely don't want to come back and do this lifetime again and do the lessons and the challenges that I've had. So I just want to,
you know, fulfil my contract. And this is part of my contract when I talk about soul contract is, is sharing spiritual knowledge in terms of death and dying. But also, I hope that in some places it doesn't take the fear out of death. It definitely does for me, but hopefully if I can share a little
bit of that with people along the way, because in any spaces I'll always bring in the spirituality, depending on whatever I talk about. But in this space, that's what gives me strength, just knowing that whatever I'm doing is being supported and guided by my ancestors and my guides and those around
Nadine J. Cohen
So, Eliza, you're a, 2024 Churchill fellow and congratulations, by the way. What's the focus of your research and how might it help first nations people?
Eliza Munro
The focus is culturally safe end of life care and to improve deaf literacy for first nations communities. Not only looking at, ah, the palliative care journey, but everything else that comes with sorry business. You know, coroner systems, organ donation is another thing that I'm passionate about
because it's something that we don't talk about but we should be. so all of those sort of systems, you've got grief, grief and loss, you know, healing, spirituality, everything and anything to do for that, sorry business journey, whether it's before, palliative, you know, during and then, you know,
at, the time, funeral practises, funeral, poverty and after and beyond. So a bit of everything. So I'm, yeah, I'm so excited to be just talking all day, every day talking about death and dying.
Nadine J. Cohen
What countries are you going to?
Eliza Munro
Torres Strait Islands First. Torres Strait Islander peoples are a minority within a minority but I want to make sure that I'm being inclusive of any perspectives, and if I'm able to gather some knowledge, make sure that goes into reports and recommendations. New Zealand, so to connect with the
Maori, Samoan, Pacific Islander, to see. I feel they do death quite well or they managed to keep their practises. So it's going to be really interesting, to connect over in New Zealand and then off to Canada. A couple of different places in Canada, three different areas for diversity and then three
different areas in the us and visiting two reservations at this stage, which reservations, if people aren't familiar, the same as communities for us here in Australia. So very excited about that.
Anthony Levin
At the heart of Eliza's research is the idea that indigenous, Indigenous people around the world share both a history and a connection which ties them together, as spiritual brothers and sisters. So it makes sense to look at what countries like Canada are doing to integrate healing practises into
mainstream healthcare systems. And on that front, Eliza says Australia has a fair way to go.
Eliza Munro
Because that's what's missing for our communities. If we think grief and loss and we're thinking sorry business, it's all connected, to healing. And if we're not in a place where we're able to vulnerably share our experiences when we're talking about death and dying or sorry business, then it
prevents us also from planning ahead and sharing, you know, in another sense, or supporting others to do that. So it's all about healing. Everything comes back to healing for me as well, so. And it's that spiritual healing, and that's what seems to be missing for some of our communities here.
Nadine J. Cohen
What would you like people to say at your funeral?
Eliza Munro
Probably, That I'm. I'm a bit of a bugger. and. But just for people to bring that in. And I think I don't want my family either, whoever does my eulogy, because I haven't planned that as yet, to probably say all these good things, and, you know, when I'm, you know, I'm not perfect, you know, bring
some of the not good things. You know, you hear go to funerals and you hear people go, oh, you know, such and such was, you know, a good person. And, yeah, they may have been a good person, but they weren't perfect either. And if I'm sitting there going, oh, I don't know about that, but I want my
family to be truthful in that sense. But, also share some of those times when I was, yeah, just made them laugh, you know, bring some of that. And because not everyone knows it depends. Your humour comes in. But not everyone gets to see that kind of other side of you.
Anthony Levin
That's very true. Okay, so, if I can be a bit cheeky, what are they going to say about you? That falls into the category of a shizabuga.
Eliza Munro
Probably the cranking people all the time. The kids have got a few storeys that tell you when anything happens, they go, oh, yeah, they know straight away. I'll bet you that's Mum, you know, and I love doing it to the younger fella now, just for the shock of him. I'll ring him and tell him. I call
them mum jokes, but they're dry. So I'll ring him just to tell him a joke and then I'll see you later, son. But it's just really quick and sweet. But this could be at 1 o' clock in the morning, if he's still up, he'll answer, but. But him and his wife go, I'll bet you that's Mum ringing just to tell
us a joke. Fair enough. Yeah. So just silly things like that, you know, there's been a few things, but don't worry, I've got a few, few little things planned for my own funeral.
Nadine J. Cohen
That's amazing. I love a good prank and I love the idea of pranking the mourners at your funeral.
Anthony Levin
Yeah. Or punking them. I want to know what they are. But maybe, maybe the big reveal is not for now.
Nadine J. Cohen
My mind is now racing with what I can do.
Eliza Munro
hopefully that's a lot long, a long time going. But you're both probably familiar with the gentleman who put the Bluetooth in his, in his coffin in Ireland. I think it was. Yeah. and was. You know, I think I'm not going to go that drastic, but, I mean, I think not drastic. I should have. That's.
I've got something else planned. I won't say that's drastic, but.
Anthony Levin
Okay. Okay. I can see you being a trickster in the afterlife as well, with that energy a little bit.
Eliza Munro
But then probably not so much because I actually, even as a spiritual person, when someone returns, I'm a bit windy too. Actually, when my brother passed, I was, you know, crapping it for months because I thought, oh, this fella's gonna get me back from childhood, you know, just pranking him all the
time. So I was actually quite windy. He did end up getting me back. But, yeah, it was. I was prepared. I think so, yeah. Probably not as much I won't be jumping out in the hallway and go, I'm surprised. You know, I think it'll be really subtle. Knock on the door or, you know, just moving the keys or
Nadine J. Cohen
You know, I'm definitely into that.
Anthony Levin
I mean, I love a good poltergeist, but I don't know, I think I prefer jumping out to the moving the keys. Cause the moving the keys or the knock on the door, I'd be, did I. Was it real? Did it happen? You know?
Nadine J. Cohen
less a prank and more just terrifying people.
Anthony Levin
And finally, Eliza, if you were on your deathbed, what would you confess?
Eliza Munro
I'd be saying to my crew, do you remember that time when this happened? And, you know, it was a prank or something similar, and. Well, that was actually Mum, you know, So I was thinking it's probably around something like that, that I would let them in.
Eliza Munro
I'd have to think of a specific event because there's too many, but
Nadine J. Cohen
while Eliza took a moment to reflect on her maternal mischiefs, Anthony decided it was his turn to step boldly into the confession booth.
Anthony Levin
I mean, it's sort of hard when you might want to share something with someone who's passed much sooner than you and my mother's past. So I always think of the time when my sister and I were mucking around at home and we knocked one of the paintings off the wall and it broke. And we knew we were
going to be in real trouble, if we told her. She could be very fiery and strict. And so instead of telling her, we just makeshift it, a kind of fix, and we hung it back on the wall and we just hoped for the best. And we just never told her. And it. It stayed on the wall. No dramas.
Nadine J. Cohen
And she never noticed.
Anthony Levin
She never knew.
Nadine J. Cohen
That's amazing.
Anthony Levin
So I would tell her probably that, mum, I broke the painting, the one that Grandma did. I'm really sorry. Yeah, that would be one of mine.
Eliza Munro
You know, That's a good one. So when I'm thinking it, just childhood stuff, you know, when I don't know if you wanted to wag school. Back in the day, we had this beautiful, gas heater that was attached to the wall. And my mum was so predictable. If you said you were sick, the first thing would be
she'd feel your forehead, you know, see if you've got a temperature. So she'd always cold morning, she'd have the, gas heater on, you know, warming up the house, ready for everyone to get up. So you sneak out, put your forhead you know, put your face in front of the heater for a little bit, warm up
the forehead, you know, and then go in and go, oh, Mum, I'm feeling a bit sick. Can I stay home from school today? You know? And the first thing she would do, put her hand on your forehead and you'd be all warmed up because you were just in front of the heater. So, But I think I have confessed that
to her now and she just. Yeah, she's not surprised.
Anthony Levin
Finally, the time had come for Nadine to ride the confession booth of truth.
Nadine J. Cohen
Before my mum's, passing. Knowing that she was passing, I actually did confess, like, a bunch of teenage shenanigans, like being fined for drinking in school. Hyde park at 16.
Nadine J. Cohen
All the raves I went to in high school. My mum was just like, yeah, like, obviously you weren't that good at hiding stuff. Like, we knew you were up to no good.
Anthony Levin
You were naughty.
Nadine J. Cohen
I was very naughty.
Eliza Munro
I'm with you. I was, very naughty teenager. So, yeah, thinking now there's probably quite a few different confessions there as well. Yeah.
Anthony Levin
Well, thanks so much, Eliza, for joining us on Grave Matter. It's been a pleasure talking to you and hearing about some of your shenanigans and all the excellent work you're doing in the sector.
Eliza Munro
So thank you, you know, thank you. It's a collective, you know, effort from all of us and there's a lot of colleagues in the space that are doing beautiful things as well for our communities, not only in palliative care, but just generally. So shout out to everyone that, you know, just soldiers on
and. And works in the space.
Nadine J. Cohen
Absolutely.
Eliza Munro
And thank you to our true allies as well that, you know, stand me that and are working in our communities in a true sense, with genuine hearts.
Anthony Levin
Nadine, what are you left pondering after our chat with Eliza?
Nadine J. Cohen
I think, like, I'm mainly thinking about that tension that we discussed between keeping a quiet and respectful space in a communal palliative care environment like a hospital or a hospice. And people wanting to be rowdy and have multiple people and respecting that, that's also okay. But how do we
engineer places and spaces that, can accommodate both?
Anthony Levin
Can they go together?
Nadine J. Cohen
I don't know, but I would like to think, I mean, you know, from hospice, like, experience at the hospice, the Sacred Heart Hospice in Darlinghurst, you know, they have a great sense of humour there. Like, there's a lot of. There's a lot of joy and happiness and laughter, but in a very respectful
way. So yeah, I'm going to be thinking about that a bit. I think
Anthony Levin
That's a really interesting idea. Yeah, I am thinking about the legacy of racism that remains in the health system that Eliza spoke about and its impact on access to end of life care for indigenous people. And I'm thinking about how it sounds like that might be slowly changing, especially with the
creation of Aboriginal health workers and identified roles in the system. But really it's work for everyone to be culturally competent to create safe environments. So that's what I'm left thinking about and I hope that it keeps moving in that direction.
Nadine J. Cohen
Yeah, I think so too. so thanks again to Eliza Munro.
In our next episode we meet educator and and podcaster Alex Campbell to talk about true crime, not getting fired, and helping a group of high school students solve a 30 year old murder mystery.
Alex Campbell
We have to get over this misconception that 16 year olds and 17 year. Olds don't know what murder is, that they are not totally confronted with this every day of their lives. Go play any video game that's big amongst teenagers. Listen to their music, watch their TV shows, watch their TikTok and you
will see that they're inundated with various types of crime. Murders, killings, suicides. Like it's. It's there.
Nadine J. Cohen
If this episode has raised issues for you and you'd like to seek mental health support, you can contact BeyondBlue on 1300-224636 or visit beyondblue.org au Also, embrace multicultural Mental Health supports people from culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds. Visit embracementalhealth.org
for 24. 7 crisis support. Call Lifeline on 13, 11, 14 or in an emergency please call 000
Anthony Levin
Grave Matters is an SBS podcast written and hosted by me and Anthony Levin, Nadine J. Cohen and produced by Jeremy Wilmot. The SBS team is Joel Supple, Max Gosford, Bernadette Fung Nam Nguyen and Philip Solomon. If you'd like to get in touch, email audiobs.com follow and review us wherever you find
