According to Dr Som Segmany, it’s been established that Australian English is effectively a separate language from British English. Just try asking anyone in England for directions to the 'servo'.
Our densely packed nest of slang, idioms and shortened words can be rough for newcomers to Australia to understand, even if they are fluent in English.
In hearing the perspectives of people who recently arrived in Australia, Rune learns that Australia is a multilingual society with a lingering monolingual mindset. As the first Western country to be a majority migrant nation, we could benefit greatly from embracing linguistic diversity.
'No dramas'... That really took me back because I felt it was a very aggressive way of saying ‘all good’Harshini Sivaraj
The Idiom is a podcast about how language shapes the way we see the world and relate to each other. Find it in your podcast app such as the SBS Audio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or LiSTNR.
The Idiom is an SBS Audio podcast produced by Think HQ CultureVerse.
- Host: Rune Pedersen
- Producers: Jacob Aguis, Jake Im, Beaurey Chan, Stefan Delatovic
- Writers: Rune Pedersen and Stefan Delatovic
- Art and design: Wendy Tang
- SBS team: Max Gosford, Joel Supple, Caroline Gates
- Guests: Dr Zhichang ‘Marc’ Xu, Dr Som Sengmany, Miko Hernandez, Harshini Sivaraj, Wendy Tang
- Other voices: Jacob Agius
- Special thanks to Jen Sharpe
Transcript
Rune Pedersen 00:00
We acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which we work - the Yaluk-ut Weelam Clan of the Boonwurrung, Naarm. We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging as we try to live up to their example as storytellers.
After I'd been in Australia for a while I went back to Denmark for a visit. When I was there I tried saying [speaking in Danish: Hvordan går det] casually to people. It didn't go that well. But [speaking in Danish: Hvordan går det] is the direct translation for that immortal Aussie greeting ‘How ya goin’?’. But only in Australia do people understand that ‘How you goin’?’ doesn't mean that. Here you just say ‘How you goin’?’ right back, and pretend that makes sense, as a… simple ‘Hello’. In Denmark, people ended up holding an intervention for me asking me why I was so invasively interrogating people about their well being. You don't just drop a line like that publicly. We keep it to that one word all IKEA employees have written on their back: ‘Hej!’. That's why idioms are so powerful, right? They mean different things depending on which country you say them in. I want to know more about this. Do idioms and language get in the way when you're trying to join a new culture? I tracked down Dr. Zhichang Xu, or Marc as he also goes by, a Senior Lecturer in the Linguistics and English Language program at Monash University, and asked if all idioms are unique to their culture of origin.
Marc Xu 01:21
Some idioms are also similar across cultures, I think I can give you some examples, like we all know, to kill two birds with one stone. But in the Chinese culture, we would say, to kill two hawks, you know, the big birds with one arrow rather than one stone. So there is this kind of similarity between the two. And I can also give you an another example, which is, you know, double edged sword. We all know what double edged sword means. However, in the Chinese culture, you know, the Confucian culture, when Confucius was talking to his disciples, so he was trying to educate his disciples. And he said that water can carry the boat, but water can also overturn the boat. That has a similar meaning to, you know, it's a double edged sword things. So there are some unique ones which are culturally unique. But there are also common ones, although they have different expressions, and their their meanings may be similar. Yeah.
Rune Pedersen 02:24
So in a multilingual society, where we have idioms that are powerful and inventive, and emotive, and can tell a story, how do we then best communicate cross-culturally, if we have those idioms? Is it the task of a translator to translate them into the corresponding idiom? Or should they translate them directly? What's your take on that?
Marc Xu 02:49
Very good. I love this question. Of course, idioms are very difficult to translate. Now we have the generative AI. That will be a huge challenge for the generative AI to translate idioms and metaphors and cultural schemas and things like that. I think it's not just the task of translators, cause translators are busy with their commitments and you know, it's their, their, their, their professional work collocations. I think that we should show that everybody every multilingual speaker, or even monolingual speaker should shoulder this responsibility to negotiate across cultures, particularly when when we come across some novel idioms. This is a big this is a good occasion in which we negotiate. So one of my former colleagues who was an expert, an leading expert in cultural linguistics, he proposed a notion or a concept which is meta cultural competence. So for meta cultural competence, people need to be aware of the cultural differences. So that's the first step, we've become aware of the cultural differences, we are aware of the different idiomatic expressions and their meanings, the stories behind them. And the second step to develop the meta cultural competence is to learn how to explain, this is what we are doing now. Like he would call explication strategies. So the multilingual speakers and monolingual speakers should develop some explication strategies to explain these things. And then the third step is negotiation strategies. And we may not agree with one another. In this case, we need to negotiate whether killing two birds with one stone, it makes more sense, or killing two hawks with an arrow makes more sense, so there is a bit of a negotiation involved. So we should all develop our meta cultural competence, in which we develop our awareness of cultural differences. We develop our strategies for explication and negotiation. So I think that would be something that everybody should be aware of, and develop.
Rune Pedersen 05:03
And whose role do you think, I mean, you're saying everybody, so measures taken, but in society knowing that it's hard to look above and beyond, you know, your little own sort of world, who, little bubble, and thank you, who should sort of lead this conversation do you think?
Marc Xu 05:21
I think you are, at the moment, leading the conversation. I really appreciate that you do this little podcast, you know, the program about idioms. And this is one way this is a big, a very good initiative for the general public to become aware of the cultural differences. And once again, another colleague of mine, a former colleague of mine, Michal Clyne, was saying that Australia is pretty much a cultu(ral) multilingual society. But Australia is also a multilingual society with a monolingual mindset. So many people have, you know, monolingual mindset. So even multilingual speakers may have a multilingual mindset, because they always apologize, you know, my English is not good enough. And you know, this is not my mother tongue. This is not my first language. And this is, to us, kind of a monolingual mindset. And monolingual speakers may have a multilingual mindset. You know, they love foreign languages, and they love learning foreign languages, even though they speak just their first language. Yeah, I think I think it's not necessarily everybody's business, but I think the media people, applied linguists, translators, language experts, you know, people who love language and people who enjoy engaging intercultural communication may take the lead, may share the experiences, even their hiccups, you know, their failures, their communication breakdowns. And in that sense, people may get to know: oh, yeah, so even language experts may make mistakes, and they, you know, they sometimes feel embarrassed because they cannot communicate successfully and things like that. So, yeah, I'd like to thank you, you know, for inviting me to come to this program. You know, this is part of this process of developing our meta cultural competence.
Rune Pedersen 07:21
Um, thank you so much for saying that. And likewise, I really appreciate it and thank you for those words. It's, it's, yeah, I think I think this conversation needs to happen in society.
I feel like I set out to find out why ‘Australians’ talk the way they do. But what I need to ask first is ‘who are Australians exactly?’.
Som Sengmany 07:42
And my name is Som Sengmany. I'm the Multicultural Insights Director at CultureVerse, which is part of Think HQ. And what I do is basically a lot of research into multicultural communities and to translate that research into communication program and strategies for our clients.
Rune Pedersen 08:01
Great. Well, welcome. We are very happy to have you. How multicultural is Australia?
Som Sengmany 08:06
That's a really good question. And I think it's a good time to come up with an answer because the last census which was the 2021 census revealed that Australia's population is not only bigger, it's actually more diverse than ever. Australia's now a majority migrant nation. When we say Australia is a majority migrant nation, that's quite significant because we're the first western country to be a majority migrant nation. The second insight coming out of the census is that that cultural diversity is actually not only growing, but it's actually getting more and more complex.
Rune Pedersen 08:43
You know, migrant myself, I have an I have an experience of arriving here. You have one as well. Um, is there anything general you could say what life is like for new migrants?
Som Sengmany 08:54
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question. I think the migrant experience is diverse. And I think it really, for a lot of people depends upon how they arrived in Australia. And I think that, you know, there's what I would consider migrations based on hope, migrations based on terror and necessity where one is leaving a country as a refugee. There's migrations based on economic circumstances. So I think that how you arrive in Australia really affects how you experience Australia as a migrant. And certainly for me, my migrant experience is based on being part of the refugee intake in Australia in the 1970s. My experience of migration was based on I guess, a migration that was based on need and necessity to leave the country and to find safe haven in another country. For migrants and refugees, their experience is a challenging one because they have often left their homeland, not often because of choice, but because of circumstances beyond their control. And I think there's a sense of loss and displacement there, that adds to the challenge of placing yourself in a new country and a new culture that can sometimes be very different to your original culture. And I think that it's important for us to realise and recognise how those different ways of arriving in Australia also impact how, you know, you learn a language, how you engage with that culture. I think that the conversations around migrations often in mainstream press don't I think grasp some of the nuances of of the different journeys that migrants take.
Rune Pedersen 10:38
I'm curious to hear, what's the hardest thing about the way Australians speak for new arrivals to get across?
Som Sengmany 10:44
I think it's been recognised that Australian English in some ways can be stated a completely different language to British English. And I think that's where the challenge is, is that Australian English is actually full of things like idioms, their slang, Australians often, you know, shorten words. So I think that for many migrants who do learn English in their home country, it's often that very typical British or US based English. And so when they come to Australia, they're actually encounter almost like a different language. You can't just learn them by reading a textbook. It's actually I think, goes deeper into understanding that culture, I think, in some ways for you to understand an idiom means that you actually understand some aspects of the culture that idiom comes from is a challenge for migrants who are adjusting to a new country because it goes beyond that simple translation of English – it’s a translation of culture and context.
BA 11:54
How ya goin’! Yeah. Nah. Nah. Yeah. Yeah nah. Now don’t come the raw prawn here mate. That’s a dog’s breakfast and you know it. You tell him he’s dreaming. Nah, no worries. Yeah. She’ll be right... All right. Gotta go. Gotta get down to the Bottle-o. Tommo, Johnno, Steveo and Davo are comin’ round after the smoko.
Som Sengmany 12:21
I think from my experience, if idioms can also create a sense of belonging, so if you get the language and you get the idioms, and you're able to use the idioms, I think that you know, for me personally, you do feel a sense of belonging to the culture that you're you've migrated to, because you, you feel a deeper sense of understanding of that culture and potentially, part of that culture.
Rune Pedersen 12:46
I recognise this in myself, as I slowly take on Australian slang and idioms. I don't always feel ready to say a particular sentence, because it's almost too far away from from my Danish self, although I like the expression and find it super comical. I also feel like a, an imposter, almost, because the idiom is not in my vocabulary. But when I do find the courage to say it, then it brings me pleasure and and I feel like I'm getting closer to the Australian culture.
Som Sengmany 13:19
And I think what is sort of picked up is that, in some ways, idioms function like a shortcut to understanding. I think explaining idioms to someone from another culture is also I think, a really important way of understanding that person and their culture. You know, when I was growing up, I had to, you know, classic idiom in Chinese culture is we don't say, our greeting isn't ‘Hello, how are you?’ or ‘How you doing?’. The greeting that we have, and whenever someone visits your ho use, whether that's family or friends is basically It's [speaking in Mandarin: 你吃饭了吗？] which translates to ‘Have you eaten?’. And that will happen whatever time, because in Chinese culture, ‘Have you eaten?’ is sort of just a general way of saying, ‘How are you?’. Because you know, eating is really important in Chinese culture, and it's the hospitality. So you want to ask your guests, you know, ‘Have you eaten?’. When I was growing up, My parents used to say to my friends, ‘Have you eaten?’. And I think for a lot of my friends, who were Anglo Australian, they kind of had trouble understanding why someone was asking them when their latest meal was, [laughter] because it just didn't make sense as a greeting. And then so I explained that really, in Chinese culture, it's standard to ask your guests that, because it's almost showing that you care, you know, ‘Have you been fed? Are you well?’. So I think there's it's just I think understanding idioms and other cultures is sort of a gateway to understanding that culture.
Rune Pedersen 14:53
So it turns out idioms can cause a challenge to joining a new culture. They can make others feel strange and unfamiliar. But once you overcome that, and once you get it, they feel like they bring us even close together. To test the theory. I asked around the office.
Harshini 15:09
My name is Harshini and I came to Australia about five years ago to study. I did my Masters here.
Miko 15:15
Hi, my name's Miko. I came to Australia four years ago to do my postgraduate studies.
Wendy 15:19
Hi, I'm Wendy. I was born in China and I moved to New Zealand when I was eight. I grew up in Auckland and moved to Melbourne when I was 21.
Rune Pedersen 15:29
Was there any weird or fun things Australian say that stood out to you?
Wendy 15:33
I think like ‘yeah nah yeah’ was a bit weird, because it's like, what what are you saying? Like, is it a yes or no? Like, there's that whole like, It's very casual. The culture is very casual. So there's a lot of like slang that I guess. Yeah, it was a bit hard to understand at first. But yeah, you pick up on it as you live in the country.
Harshini 15:51
The informality of just how people interact with each other. Like in India, we have a hierarchy in place. So I really struggled with referring to people by their names, especially people in positions of power or authority, I, I would hesitate to write an email to my professors, because I'd have to refer to them by name. I struggled a lot when I started working, because I just couldn't call people by their names, especially if they were like elder than me, because you know, you're taught for like, so many years to, you know, be respectful to everybody.
Miko 16:27
Yeah, when I first came here, I definitely noticed the shortening of some words. My favourite one is servo, which is short for a petrol station. I thought that was really cool.
Harshini 16:38
‘No dramas.’ That really took me aback because I felt it was a very aggressive way of saying, ‘Oh, good, it's all chill.’ Because we have a similar way where we use ‘drama’ and slang in Tamil where you like, it essentially means ‘Oh she's being too dramatic’, or ‘He's just putting unnecessary drama and acting out.’ So to use it in a very different connotation, very chill, and ‘Everything's fine.’ was, I can't use it because I still feel it's very aggressive. And when someone writes that to me in an email, or just says it to me, I'm like, but why? Why are you being aggressive?
Rune Pedersen 17:15
The first instances where I see challenges in our society is assuming a perspective. In culture, we often try and communicate an idea from our perspective, it makes sense because that's what we know. But we forget to communicate and negotiate with our audience, meaning we forget to chat about if the story is even relatable cross-culturally, and how it's best communicated. Do we kill two birds with one stone? Or is it one arrow two hawks, as in Chinese. In Danish, we say to hit two flies in one smack. The difference on the surface might seem miniscule, because these sentences communicate the same idea, but the tricky part lies underneath it. What emotions do they express? When are they most suitable to use? What connotations do they bring? We have to talk together to figure this out. I can't just assume my perspective and assume that my frame of reference will resonate. I need to start by asking questions and stop by listening.
The Idiom is a production of Think HQ CultureVerse and SBS. It is hosted by me Rune Pedersen, Produced by Bridget Bourke, Jacob Agius and Stefan Delatovic and written by me and Stefan Delatovic. Our amazing artwork is by Wendy Tang. Follow and review us wherever you found this podcast, and tell us your favourite idiom at theidiom@sbs.com.au
