Faced with the end (of this podcast at least), Rune looks into why the term 'deadline' is so prominent in the workplace, and ends up contemplating the true meaning of mortality.
Do we talk about death differently when it feels far away? What about when it’s at our doorstep? Do different cultures approach the topic of death differently?
Death tends to have us grasping for meaning, and Rune is no different. Before his time is up, he has to figure out what we've learned from this whole journey, enlisting the help of death doula Kimba Griffith and washed up journalist Stefan Delatovic.
I've noticed people who are dying don't say "I'm going to pass away", they say, "I'm gonna die soon"... I think they're quite direct about it.Kimba Griffith
The Idiom is a podcast about how language shapes the way we see the world and relate to each other. Find previous episodes in the eight-part series your podcast app, such as the SBS Audio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or LiSTNR.
The Idiom is an SBS Audio podcast produced by Think HQ CultureVerse.
- Host: Rune Pedersen
- Producers: Jake Im, Jacob Aguis, Beaurey Chan, Stefan Delatovic
- Sound design: Jake Im, David Ross
- Writers: Rune Pedersen and Stefan Delatovic
- Art and design: Wendy Tang
- SBS team: Max Gosford, Joel Supple, Caroline Gates
- Guest: Kimba Griffith, Stefan Delatovic
- Special thanks to Jen Sharpe
Transcript
Rune Pedersen
We acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which we work - the Yaluk-ut Weelam Clan of the Boon Wurrung, Naarm.
We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging as we try to live up to their example as storytellers.
Rune Pedersen
Well, I guess this is it. The last episode of The Idiom. I've been trying to figure out what I've learned this past season and I guess when I think on it, I would say that..
What the f…. (panting)
Death (Rune)
Rune!
Rune Pedersen
Who are you?
Death (Rune)
It is I!
The Pale Rider.
King Yama.
The Grim Reaper.
Rune Pedersen
Wait, the Grim Reap… Are you?
Death (Rune)
The Psychopomp.
Thanatos.
Magere hein.
[Loud music plays!]
Death (Rune)
Sorry! I just never been on a podcast before. Exciting!!
Rune Pedersen
[laughts] I know, right? It's super exciting. You get to get on tape. I love it.
Death (Rune)
I AM DEATH!
Rune Pedersen
Yeah, I figured, Mr. Death. But why are you here?
Death (Rune)
I am here for you. It is your time! I think it’s time to walk the dog maybe!
Rune Pedersen
No no no no. My time for what? I am not ready! Not death. You go away. I got too much to live for?
Death (Rune)
Such as
Rune Pedersen
I mean I gotta finish this episode. This is the one where I tie it all together. I share what I’ve learned.
Death (Rune)
And what have you learned?
Rune Pedersen
I feel like I still have 20 minutes to figure it out?
Death (Rune)
So be it. I shall return for you exactly at the end of this episode. Use your remaining time wisely!
Rune Pedersen
I can do this. It's just a deadline. I can meet a deadline. How do I meet a deadline?
I don't know if I can do this. Hey, Stefan. Sorry, can you come out of the production booth for a moment? I had something really weird just happened to me.
You used to be a journalist. Can you talk to me about deadlines?
Stefan Delatovic
Oh, well, a deadline, as a journalist is the sort of North Star from which you live your entire existence. It's sort of the engine of your productivity as well as just bold, numbing terror. Is that too dramatic?
Rune Pedersen
Well, perhaps, but that's the question. Is it too dramatic?
Stefan Delatovic
I think so like the deadline, interestingly, I think first came out during the American Civil War, and it was literally a deadline, like, they would put a bunch of prisoners together on the dirt, and they would draw a line around them. This is like 1860. And if people crossed that line, they would get shot. So it was like, this is the deadline, if you pass this line, you will become dead, you will stop being alive. So in that case, I think the term deadline is appropriately dramatic, because that's, that's, you know, quite final, the fact that you pass away. What's interesting is that now, we sort of use that to mean a thing that I have to get done at work today, my deadline to perform this task. And look, frankly, I think perhaps maybe it is slightly overdramatic to us what used to be physically crossed this line, and you will cease to be a living person, as just to mean, I've got to get my work done by five.
Rune Pedersen
Okay, so what should I really be worried about?
Stefan Delatovic
I think you should worry less about the daily deadlines of human existence and just worry about that one big one at the end
Rune Pedersen
and look at it. Yeah
Stefan Delatovic
I think so.
I think you should look at it. I think we spend a lot of time talking about those little stresses throughout our lives. And not enough time talking about what we're going to look back on at the end.
Rune Pedersen
Stefan made me feel a little bit less stressed about this deadline, but not less stressed about actually dying. So I invited Kimba Griffift on the podcast who knows much more about death than, I guess, most people.
Kimba
So I'm Kimba I live in Melbourne, and I've lived here for a long time. And I am the co founder of The last hurrah funerals in Thornbury. And part of my work is a ceremonial list, funeral director and a death doula.
Rune Pedersen
I'm really curious to understand how do people are how do you help people come to terms with their mortality?
Kimba
I think it depends on the person. It depends where they're at. It depends, you know, what, how they intersect with me. So a lot of people, you know, contact me because someone has died might be someone they love, or someone they have to care for it. There's, you know, that's an interesting thing in itself. We often in the industry, say a loved one. But you know, they're not always. So that's one way. So I'm helping someone who's still alive to deal with someone else's death, then we're contacted by people who have a life limiting diagnosis, and they might want to plan a funeral. And those people, I normally shock them a bit because I say, oh, yeah, that's easy, the funeral part and you're not going to be there. So it's abstract. But what about the dying part? And how's how's that going for you? And they're like, because, you know, not everyone's prepped for that conversation. But that's another way just, you know, inviting the conversation. And then the last way is people who actually know they're dying, and they want to sort of, you know, really jump in with someone, and kind of like, get into the like, you know, nuts and bolts of what that's going to look like for them.
Rune Pedersen
What kind of experience do you have with language around death?
Kimba
That's a really interesting one. Because we are sort of in the practice of, I suppose, doing away with some of the idioms we use in our culture, like, the typical one is the term they passed away. So that's what like everyone use, I never use it. I don't believe in it. I don't like it. And I don't think it's necessary. Of course, when someone says that to me, I don't like tell them I don't like that. It just when I speak about death and dying, the person died. When someone says passed away, I'm like, Well, where did they pass away to?Llike, what there's such a, you know, interesting, I mean, you know, creatively or kind of metaphorically, that could be a great thing to muse on. But really, it just like, takes us away from what really happened, which is someone died, you know. So that's one of the ones that we really kind of work on, changing from the inside. So I won't say that to any family member who comes along. But when I write a ceremony, I always use the word died or death. The other one that we typically work on is this concept. I already mentioned that of the loved one, which there's a great book by Evelyn Waugh written in the 40s, called The Loved One, which is all about the funeral industry. And like, it still rings, so true today. But that concept of like, when someone dies, they become your loved one, you know, now look, often they are your loved one, but they're not always like people have to organise funerals for their abusers sometimes, because they're the only person that is there to do it, you know, or they might have a really complicated relationship with someone. So by just suddenly calling them ‘your loved one’, it just negates that person's experience probably makes them more uncomfortable with having to organise the funeral. And I just think it's not that kind of supportive of Family Constellation. So we just call them ‘your person’, like, for good or for bad. They're your person and that works really well.
Rune Pedersen
What are some of the idioms that you know about?
Kimba
Well, I made a little list here. To be honest, the best one I've ever come across was Monty Python's Flying Circus, the Dead Parrot sketch. So, and I actually got some of the scripts here because like, it's just the best list like:
He's passed on. He's no more. He ceased to be. He's expired and gone to meet his maker. He's a stiff. Bereft of life. Rest in peace. Pushing up daisies. This one's a bit more rare, but he's metabolic processes are now history. Yeah, He kicked the bucket. Shuffled off this mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible. THIS IS AN EX-PARROT Love that one. I actually want to steal that.
So obviously kick the bucket. Wouldn't be caught dead in that. Passed away. Yep. Loved One. Celebration of life. The last Hurrah, which is what we call ourselves, that's an idiom, Deadset, and Fuck me dead! Which is a very Australian thing to say.
Rune Pedersen
It does sound very Australian.
Yeah. Why do you think humans created idioms to talk about death?
Kimba
I think just for, like you said, as you explored in your great first episode, that, you know, they do relate to like taboos or, or things that are a bit hard to come at. Or, I mean, also, I just think we're very creative as a creative animals. You know, I think we probably create idioms in Australia. I mean, I can't think of a place we don't have an idiom, you know. But I guess it's just about how do we come out a concept that's very, very difficult. And again, I'll come back to say that it's not that we don't want to talk about death and dying in our culture, because that's a common thing. People always say, why don't we want to talk about death. And I'm like, You know what, I don't see that. I just see that people don't have the right invitation to talk about it. Or they're not in a space that feels safe to talk about it. They actually really want to, like, everyone's fascinated by death, because we're all going to do that one day. But I think it's, you know, just a symptom of, like, if you're not, if you haven't got a safe space in Australia, particularly, and I'm sure there's other things in different cultures, you'll just kind of make make light of it, you know, and making light of something's great. Like, there's nothing wrong with that. And in our industry, Gallows humour, is one of the main ways we get through, because what we do is very hard. So yeah, we definitely go down that dark humour path a lot.
Rune Pedersen
How do people talk about death? And how does it change as they approach death?
Kimba
Well, I think one of the big things is people who are dying, don't say, I'm going to pass away, I've noticed that they don't they say, I'm gonna die soon. Or, you know, they might say, I don't know how much longer I've got or you know, I'm not long for this world or you know, things like that, but pretty much they just say, Yeah, I want to talk. Normally, they say, I want to talk about my funeral. So in a way, the funeral itself has become an idiom for people to talk about their death. Because it feels like you're organising a party, you know, and I always say like, that's great that it's easy, like, because you can like, go as visionary as you want, because you're not going to be there. Unless, of course, you have a living wake, which we recommend, but is hard to do. So yeah, I think they're quite direct about it, when they come to the point of talking to me. Now, obviously, there's people that don't, you know, like, my dad, for example, he died in 2020. And he had a long journey with cancer and was very positive guy, he, he never, like, looked up his cancer on the internet, or went on a forum or joined a support group, or he just like, lived his life, listen to his doctor, did whatever they said, and like, he did very well, actually. But when it came, like time to acknowledge that, like, you know, he's gonna die soon, he just didn't want to go there at all, especially not with me, like, I was, like, you know, it was like, Do not go there with him. And you had to respect that that was his way of getting through it. And I remember that, you know, on his deathbed, when he, you know, was in his last little bit, like, you know, I'm talking like, an hour or so before he died, he looked at me, and he said, You know, I don't like this. And I said, Well, you know, you have to let go. And that was like, a really, that was the work because dying is can be really hard work, you know, so not everyone is going to look at their mortality before they die. And that's okay. You know, like, it's great if you can, but it's not like you have to do it either. Like, everyone's just doing their best
Rune Pedersen
I'm really curious, how do you deal with someone who is terrified of death?
Kimba
To be honest, one of the main reasons I did get into this work probably was that I'm terrified of dying. And, you know, that's weird. I'm the kind of person that runs towards the thing that terrifies them, which, you know, is weird. But, you know, I can kind of understand it, you know, and also, there's just so many different ways to die. And, you know, you can have a very peaceful dying, or you can have a not peaceful dying, whether or not you've addressed your fear whether or not you've, you know, been open to your mortality, I just think we don't know, it is the great mystery. But of course, attending to your possible death is probably, you know, the best way to have the best chance of a better experience. But, you know, yeah, deaths, death is scary. And I just think that platitudes, or maybe idioms around that, you know, like, passed away, sounds very soft, doesn't it? Passed away? To where wherever you want, you know, you know, and if that would help someone, like, if, if I could tell that someone needed that, who was dying, I might use it then. Right. But when they've already gone, I probably wouldn't. But, you know, I just think we need to be really open to the fact that it is the great unknown, and which is an idiom. And therefore we can't really hope or, you know, we may not be able to impact someone's experience of it.
Rune Pedersen
What should I think about when I have to face my own mortality?
Kimba
So I think there's a philosophical component and a practical component and probably the practical one is maybe easier to see out with which is like, what do you want to happen to you when you die? And who should you be telling about that? Couple of tips on that. Don't just tell one person, because then that one person might be like, This is what they wanted to, or they didn't tell me that, you know, it can create family dramas. So it's better if you, you don't like you can be really organised like, Look, if I'm being like, best practice, I'd be like, do your advanced care plan, do your medical power of attorney do all those things? But look, let's be honest, I haven't done mine because I might the plumber who never fixes their tap,but what I have done is I've done like a kind of non official document about what I want. And I update it, I'm gonna have to do it again, because I'm going to Cuba next month. So you know about what happens if I die, or also what happens if I can't communicate or I can't understand or if I'm being peg fed, I've got I mean, knowing my job, I've got a big list. But even if you just start with like, what do you want to happen when you die, or if you can't communicate, and just tell a number of people about that. And also, when you're thinking about your aspirational funeral that you're not going to be at, it might be nice if you consider the means that are there for you to have that because for example, we had someone recently, who left instructions for a Sea burial, which is quite difficult, but not impossible to do. And they wanted like, you know, this whole like, and the Hearst takes me along the Great Ocean Road all the way you know. And the fact of the matter is that you have to go to Warrnambool. And you need to put a week aside for the conditions to be right, you've got to go to the continental shelf, and you've got a you know, store and there's all this stuff, which of course, you know, if you're not in the industry, you might not know but like even just the idea of it's quite a big idea. And it's probably going to cost $25,000, you know, so because some people get really like, they want to make sure that what's in that person's final wishes is done. But that's one thing. And it could be hard. Or the other thing is if you leave no instructions at all, and you never have the chat, then people are thrown into turmoil about what to do for you when you die. So you know if you can just start with that. That's great. And then on a philosophical, on the other hand, philosophical hand, you know, just to sit for like, even a minute, and just know that you are going to die. And that is very abstract, and see how it feels? Yeah.
Rune Pedersen
Can you share any advice to have better communication around death?
Kimba
I think when someone dies, we are very, when we don't know what to say. Right? So sometimes people say dumb stuff that they didn't really think through. Like, you know, I know just how you feel, or no, you don't, because like even if someone's died for you, you don't know how that person's feeling. You don't know all the array of subtleties and intricacies that are in their mind around that person's death.
Other people because they don't know what to say. They avoid the person who happens very, very often, you know, like people drop away when someone dies. And it's like, I always say, in my ceremonies at the end, I say it doesn't matter if you don't know what to say. Just say I don't know what to say. Or I'm so sorry. There are no words for this you know, and that just the person's like yes, there aren't you know, and that's a connecting point. So I think that's a big thing around dying and just yeah, just like maybe try saying died instead of passed away and see how that feels, you know, and see if that allows you to kind of touch reality a little bit more. It might make you more sad, but that's actually okay. Because dying sucks and it's very sad. And that is, that is the truth of it, you know? So yeah, I think that's a couple there's a couple of ways people could look at their language around
Rune Pedersen
Is there anything you would like to share that we haven't haven't been around?
Kimba
I just think, you know, I'm with the whole idioms thing, even though I've spent the entire episode dismantling why we have idioms and so on, I think, you know, the more creative ones can be really comforting. You know, like the Dead Parrot sketch, actually, someone read that out at their dad's funeral the other day, and instead of parrot, they inserted the word dad. It was brilliant! And everyone loved it, you know, and it was like, we weren't, in a way because it's like, at the end of the day, it's all like saying over and over and over and over again that this thing's dead. Right? So I just thought that was magic. So I think where the idiom is comforting, and it's playful, or it's conscious, go for it. But where it's unconscious, culturally driven, like kind of we've just been anesthetised into this way of speaking about it, maybe they're the ones and they're very hard to do like, I don't say Passed away anymore, but some of our staff are still unlearning that you know, because it's just so embedded in us. And at the end of the day, if you want to say passed away, like it's just my opinion, but I think yeah, let let idioms and language be a vehicle for comfort and for laughter because like at the end of the day, like sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Death (Rune)
Rune. I am returned from beyond the veil to remove you from this world unto the great unknown.
Rune Pedersen
Yeah, that’s OK.
Death (Rune)
Really?
Rune Pedersen
Yeah, I got to a good place.
As Kimba says, idioms and language are great vehicles for comfort and laughter.
Idioms can desensitize us, or make us feel things more.
They can help us navigate dicey waters and tiptoe around taboos.
Idioms can spark some really good conversations, and open doors to other perspectives.
They can also stir up confusion, but also weave us together, once we've cracked their code.
And I think that's pretty profound.
Rune Pedersen
The Idiom is a production of Think HQ CultureVerse and SBS.
It is hosted by me, Rune Pedersen. Produced by Jacob Agius, Beaurey Chan, Jake Im and Stefan Delatovic, and written by me and Stefan Delatovic. The SBS team is Caroline Gates, Joel Supple & Max Gosford. And our artwork is by Wendy Tang.
Thanks for joining me on this season of the Idiom. Go and listen to all the episodes if you haven’t already. If you enjoyed it, perhaps tell a stranger on a bus!
Follow and review us wherever you found this podcast, and tell us your favourite idiom at theidiom@sbs.com.au
