While there are a lot of idioms about money, what’s really needed is a little more plain speaking.
In Western countries, we're actually more comfortable about talking about what we do in our bedsheets than our in our economic spreadsheets.Howard Manns
Too many of us don’t know enough about finances, saving, and the economy to help us make good financial decisions.
In this episode Rune chats with Emmanuel Dusengumuremyi, someone who talks with people about money every day as a bank Branch Manager. You wont be surprised to hear that his favourite idiom is 'A penny saved is a penny earned', but not everyone is on the same page.
Some people in my community say yeah, if I have money, it's for me to spend today, because today is guaranteed, but I don't know about tomorrow.Emmanuel Dusengumuremyi
The Idiom is a podcast about how language shapes the way we see the world and relate to each other. Find it in your podcast app such as the SBS Audio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or LiSTNR.
The Idiom is an SBS Audio podcast produced by Think HQ CultureVerse.
- Host: Rune Pedersen
- Producers: Bridget Bourke, Jacob Aguis, Beaurey Chan, Stefan Delatovic
- Writers: Rune Pedersen and Stefan Delatovic
- Art and design: Wendy Tang
- SBS team: Max Gosford, Joel Supple, Caroline Gates
- Guests: Emmanuel Dusengumuremyi, Howard Manns, Saumya Poojary
- Special thanks to Jen Sharpe
Transcript
Rune Pedersen 00:00
We acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which we work - the Yaluk-ut Weelam Clan of the Boon Wurrung, Naarm. We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging as we try to live up to their example as storytellers.
Hey, Stefan, you have a new job? How much do you earn?
Stefan Delatovic 00:20
Oh man, the feeling in my spine bones when you said that could be described as anxiety.
Rune Pedersen 00:29
When I was little I wanted a purple bicycle. I used to do the dishes, and my mum would pay me something like 80 cents to a dollar for each full load. I distinctly remember collecting the coins in my piggy bank, and I would take them out and polish them with dish detergent, hold the coins and feel their weight and dream of what they could buy me. I felt understood by Scrooge McDuck. He and I were the same. I still remember that one night where my mom had a party with her friends and I scored something like 5 dollars that night. Cleaning, serving the guests, I probably even danced too. 8-year-old me would have done anything, because it brought me closer to the purple bicycle. After years of saving and adding in money from my birthdays, and other gifts, I finally had enough to buy it, and I finally got it. And I was over the moon. Well, not really. Little 10-year-old me was too afraid to ride it, so it just stood untouched for years, and it reminded me of the fortune I’d amassed, and traded for what I later in life learned, was shame.
Money! It’s all around us. You can bet your bottom dollar we all need it. But unlike language, we tend to keep our money quiet. Is that what we mean by hush money? No, that's an idiom for paying someone to keep a secret. Not to be confused with hurt money, which is the money you put into a joint purchase to demonstrate you’re authentically invested. In China, they say a man's greed is like a snake trying to swallow an elephant. And speaking of food, in Germany, if you're living a lavish lifestyle, you're said to 'Leben wie die Made im Speck’ or to ‘live like a maggot in bacon’. Hmm. Evocative. Does that maggot bring home that bacon? Hard to know. In many workplaces, homes and cultures, it's taboo to talk about what you earn and how you’re doing and I want to learn why.
Bank Manager 02:19
Hello there, Rune. And welcome to the bank.
Rune Pedersen 02:22
Hey!
Bank Manager 02:23
What can we do for you today?
Rune Pedersen 02:26
Well, I'm hoping to get a loan. I would like to go on a lovely holiday.
Bank Manager 02:31
Okay, I see. Well, let me just pull up your file here. Hmmmm. Okay, well, it says here that you are the host of something called a podcast?
Rune Pedersen 02:43
Yeah, that's right. It's about the way that idioms will…
Bank Manager 02:47
Yes. Yes. And how much does it pay?
Rune Pedersen 02:48
Yes. Well, I've written it down here.
Bank Manager 02:52
Yes, I see. The shame. Any assets?
Rune Pedersen 02:56
Not in Australia, no. Does debt count?
Bank Manager 03:01
Rune, you and I need to have a little talk about money.
Rune Pedersen 03:05
So yes, I set out to hear from someone who knows more about money than a podcast host. I was lucky enough to find Emmanuel, who is a Kew branch manager at Bank Australia.
Emmy 03:15
I come from Rwanda. Rwanda is a country in East Africa. And I was affected by the genocide against the Tutsi back then back home. Obviously I lost my family there as well. And then I moved in Australia, obviously, coming from French background because I did my primary high school and university in the French, but I wanted to challenge myself with more responsibilities, more understanding of the world, understanding of different cultures, which I was not able to achieve with just being able… To speak different languages now has enabled me to be able to make a difference and also learning how I can best understand people around me.
Rune Pedersen
Do people talk enough about money?
Emmy
That's a good question. I think there are not enough conversations around how people manage money, for example. And I think there could be so many reasons. I think because we don't have those conversations at a young age. We tend to grow up not knowing what we can talk about, really. And I think we missed the foundation. I think that's one of the factors. And also too, sometimes we have misconception or misperception thinking that oh, yeah, money is too personal. Why should I discuss it with someone else? Also, too, I think there is the fear of feeling that I'll be judged.
Rune Pedersen
What's the consequences of us not learning about money in schools or through our parents?
Emmy
Yeah, the consequences are, we don't learn how we can best spend or how can best manage our money. And then we find ourselves in positions where we can't afford the thing where we can't achieve our financial goals. And that will put more pressure on us and, we, really affects our mental health as well.
Rune Pedersen
I was curious to hear from our visiting linguist Howard Manns, and get his take on how we talk about money.
Howard
In Western countries, we're actually more comfortable about talking about what we do in our bedsheets than our in our economic spreadsheets.
And a lot of this is wrapped up in this ever-growing array of complex jargon words associated with wealth. And these words always seem to be shifting. You know, money management becomes wealth management, wages become salaries become compensation, or renumeration. All of these words are really shifting around and because of it, you know, money just feels like something we can't control. And the language around money even makes this a little bit trickier.
You know, it can almost seem like, there's the man behind the curtain in a Wizard of Oz kind of way, with a lot of this terminology. You know that famed phrase, ‘We couldn't make it more expensive, so we made it smaller’, you know, shrinkflation. And talking about how something isn't small sized, it's fun sized. And there's just so many words around this, that that are confusing. And in a world where we're busily trying to get on with our lives and want to understand enough about finance to get on, you know, this, this kind of terminology is problematic. And also we feel sometimes I think, as people like it's being wielded against us, you know, businesses don't fire people anymore. We downsize, rightsize, readjust, streamline, you know, choose your words, but oftentimes, we're at the receiving end of these words. And you know, the fact that you have all of this really confusing terminology floating about means that it's something that's really difficult to get our head around.
Rune Pedersen
Much appreciated Howard! Now back to Emmanuel. So as someone working in a bank, working with multiple people during the day from different cultures, how do you navigate communication around money and speaking to customers, if there could be shame or taboos involved?
Emmy
I think one of the things I do is to really ask questions, just understand the customer better, understand who I'm talking to, and also to sharing my experience about around what I'm what I have faced, what were the challenges in my life, how I have overcome all the challenges.
Rune Pedersen
Do you mind sharing your experience with money?
Emmy
Yeah, my experience with the money is actually an interesting one. I remember when I moved here, as I mentioned before, I didn't have a savings account. I didn't know how it works. And I didn't even know how to use the ATM, for example. So I was a bit terrified as to what I should do. Do I open an account. If yes, how do I use it? So I got it started. Then later on, I was obviously struggling with using card, internet banking, because it was all too new. And I started thinking of how I can overcome those challenges.
Rune Pedersen
Do you have any idioms you can share about money?
Emmy
Yeah, I have one, obviously, probably is my favourite of all times. A penny saved is a penny earned. And I think saving money is not about the amount you put aside. It's about the habit you get into, to think, yeah, I am saving for a goal. And it doesn't matter how much you put in the account. What matters is if you are consistent, and every dollar counts, of course.
Rune Pedersen
Have you ever met anyone who, maybe because of their culture or their own personal belief, didn't believe in saving?
Emmy
Yeah, some of people in my community, they say yeah, if I have money, it's for me to spend today, because today's guaranteed, but I don't know about tomorrow.
Rune Pedersen
If I gave you a bag of money, and you could go out and do something about financial literacy, what would you do?
Emmy
That's an interesting thing. If I have that bag of money, I would probably spend more in education, because I want to educate people out there in the community about how they can spend, better spend their money.
Rune Pedersen
If you dive into the topic of education, what could we do?
Emmy
So first of all, I will just demonstrate how money affects their lifestyle. And so it's something we should be chatting about, that there is no problem whatsoever, talking about what you earn, and how you invest it or how you save it. And also too, I will chat about savings, I will probably chat more about how they can best save for tomorrow, because we can only secure tomorrow today. And when it comes to probably the Western, I would probably touch base on things like talking about money is okay. It's okay to say that you're struggling, because you're not alone. The truth is that someone else is struggling as well. And you can get support, and the support is available for you to get back on your feet.
Rune Pedersen
I'm curious, as someone working in a bank, have you ever heard a colleague or someone working in a bank sharing their financial stress?
Emmy
Not that I can think of. That's why we chatted about our traditional education not being able to give us more foundation for us to just be able to discuss that in the community. I think when I'm, for example, when I'm chatting with a friend, or when I'm going out with a friend to have dinner, for example, I'm not expecting them to be telling them, telling me about their financial position, what is happening in their financial side of of life. I think that's where we needed to start those conversations. I think they're important. Are we doing enough? I don't think so.
Rune Pedersen
If you could give a community member an advice, what kind of questions can they ask their bank?
Emmy
First question will be, what are the options have you got for me to get started putting money aside? And also too I will ask, what is the support available, for example, someone could really not have much money. You should not be ashamed of your position of where you are today. Because as I mentioned, everyone has been there. And the chances are when you get help, you will get back on your feet.
Rune Pedersen
Yeah, I think it's so interesting how the taboo and the shame of money is woven in through society. And from what I hear you’re saying is like, well, even in, in a bank, you have obviously a limited experience. But even in a bank, you don't talk necessarily that much about your own personal finances. It's it's sort of cut off. Some cultures, you know, have a very collectivist mindset around money, and others are really individualistic, right? Like I might not even share with my mother or my father, how I'm sitting financially, and others are really like pooling money together. Have you seen, seen that happening?
Emmy
Yeah, to begin with, some people, for example, from my culture, if we go out, for example, for a dinner, whoever has money pay. Whereas in the western, obviously, every individual will pay for their meal. So I think that happens also for different communities, because sometimes people tend to collect money to support one person who is struggling with their finances, whereas in some other communities, it's on them. I think there is no right or wrong.
Rune Pedersen
Do you think about your money as your money? Or is that your money for your community and those close to you?
Emmy
I think both. So if I have money, obviously it's for me to be able to achieve my goals in life, but at the same time, I'm open to supporting the community so I can contribute for a good cause.
Rune Pedersen
Collective money mindset is a completely new concept to me. To explore this topic more, I invited a friend on the podcast to share how she and her family understand money.
Saumya
My name is Saumya Poojary and I am from Mumbai, India.
Rune Pedersen
Do you have any money related idiom in Hindi, you'd like to share?
Saumya
My favourite idiom is probably [speaking in Hindi], which directly translates to what you save is what you earn, which roughly is the same as A penny saved is a penny earned. Another one that I really like is [speaking in Hindi], which means that chicken you’ve bought cost 50 cents, but the spices you’re using to cook it cost $1, which makes it a poor financial choice.
Rune Pedersen
When thinking about savings and money in general, are there any noticeable differences between India, where you're from, and Australia?
Saumya
I think it plays on that idea of individualism and collectivism, where I think people like to separate themselves from their parents’ wealth here. Whereas in India, I find that if someone were to ask me about my parents’ money, I would always refer to my parents’ money as my money. And it seems a bit cocky. But I think, growing up, I was always taught that it's our family money. And everything that we do with that money is for the betterment of the family. I think I see the money that I earn, as a way to sort of elevate my family as well. Like, just like my parents did for me when I was a child.
Rune Pedersen
Yeah, great. All right, could you expand on the money you earn, and the role that those money will have? Maybe not now, but later on in life for your family?
Saumya
I think the way my parents have always, like described our relationship with money is that individually, we can only do so much, but it's almost like you come together and it's like a superpower. Right? Like where we collectively have a lot more we can afford more. And I think it goes even beyond just my immediate family. Like, I remember very clearly when I was trying to move here for my studies, and obviously India's currencies quite different than Australia's is. So education here is quite expensive for us. My parents explored the possibility of having some help from their siblings as well. And this isn't like a handout, right? Like, we obviously have to pay them back. But then that was a comfortable, like opportunity for them to explore and go down that avenue, if it was something that we chose to do. And I think it's kind of similar with the money that I earn, as well, in the sense that tomorrow, if my parents were to come visit here, I would take that financial responsibility of like making sure they're comfortable on their trip, and they want to do everything that they want to do.
My ambition for my family is that I can get them an apartment that has another extra bedroom so that we can live slightly more comfortably. But I fully understand that my parents are at retirement age now. And they probably can't get a home loan. So it's my like, that is what I want for my family is to have a slightly bigger house. And I think it's a really comforting thought. But also it plays into a lot of guilt as well I have found, in the sense that I remember when I was studying, and I wasn't making any money, and my parents were actually funding my education and funding my living expenses. It was so much pressure to do well, because I knew they were earning in rupees and not dollars. And they're putting all of their life savings and their resources into educating me, which obviously adds so much pressure on a person to do well. But I think it's a double-edged sword. It works as a safety net. And it brings a little bit of guilt as well.
Rune Pedersen
Why is money such a hush-hush topic? And why don't we learn about it in school? Money is really just a medium of exchange serving as a unit of account, and sometimes as a store of value. When it comes to money, we don't publicly talk about the hard bits because it's so entangled in shame and guilt. It's frowned upon to talk about the money you do have, and it feels shameful to talk about it when you have none. Most of us are somewhat clueless when it comes to financial literacy. And that just leads to too many purple bicycles. The problem is that financial education has taken a backseat, leaving us as prepared as a penguin in a desert. Buy now, pain later!
The Idiom is a production of Think HQ CultureVerse and SBS. It is hosted by me, Rune Pedersen, Produced by Jacob Agius, Jake Im and Stefan Delatovic and written by me and Stefan. Our artwork is by Wendy Tang. Follow and review us wherever you found this podcast, and tell us your favourite idiom at theidiom@sbs.com.au
